Now we need QoL for Raids

You can already do your 3rd by simply having one single other person with you (a mage covers your last point as well). You get 3 items each and they’re all usable. Legion is a bad one to try in though, as relics are still usable.

Look, I get their reasoning. The fact of the matter is, I don’t really care.

We have 2s and 3s in PvP even though 2s is a joke they don’t balance around. Yes, there’s a big difference between having to develop and tune 10-man content and just allowing 2v2 PvP to continue existing… but 10-man raiding was very popular, vastly more popular than 25-man, and to this day many of us would drop 20-man like a rock for 10-man if we could. I’d bet you’d get many players coming back to the game for 10-man raiding.

The vibe of 20-man raiding is just dog-water compared to 10-man. There’s also this insane/deranged narrative around raiding, that if you don’t 20-man raid you’re not allowed to criticize it, but if you do 20-man raid then you must like it, it’s crazy person logic. Raiders use the most illogical justifications to try to prop up 20-man raiding as being important and meaningful. I hate 20-man raid culture but it is the only way to experience content more challenging than residentsleeper heroic.

Whatever. If my hatred of 20-man raid culture ever outweighs my enjoyment of actually playing the content, I’ll just unsub. I have before and I can do it again.

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Not exactly true, you can PUG it just not cross realm. There is nothing stopping you from picking up 19 other players on your realm and doing it.

I do agree that mythic raiding should have it’s lockout changed to match the other types. As a guild that dabbles in mythic, we frequently invite pugs and probably 50% of the time they are locked to another instance and didn’t understand that they can’t join our raid do to it.

Scaling Mythic raiding would be nice as well but I doubt we will ever see that. They are too worried about the differences in difficulty that could be created in trying to build an encounter design. If you raided back in Wrath you will remember that it was pretty well known that the 10 man version tended to be more difficult because they couldn’t get the scaling in mechanics down.

True but i was talking about pug on general, including cross realm with the LFG tool and a warlock inside the instance maybe, it’s really difficult to find for some realms the player needed via LFG from their same realm

Big issue that should be changed at least, that’s an easy WIN.

True and this keep happening on some recent fights on which a group with X number of players face more or less adds during a phase or X mechanic, i would prefer all the Raid difficulties with a 10-15M number, however there’ll be guilds that will feel bad because someone left outside of the run, however right now Mythic cause the opposite effect, there’s entire guilds outside of the content because these guilds don’t reach the minimum 20M + add a bench in case someone doesn’t show for the raid.

I’m not going to disagree with you on this at all, but my personal experience at the end of Cataclysm made this funny to me. My guild was trying to get realm first Heroic Madness (the realm was Garrosh and it was dead even then) and our closest competition was running 25 man. When we won (again, Garrosh, so we were like a world top 1 million at that point, not a huge accomplishment) I still remember complaints about how it didn’t count because we did the easier 10 man version and 25 man was what hardcore folks did.

From my experiences, 10M meant we needed more flexibility in raiders (and/or rotating people) and everybody had to be good. 25M had more of a margin of error (and more room for less good), but it involved wrangling 25 (at least competent) people together and I could barely find 10 I tolerated.

With respect to Mythic raids - while I don’t entirely get the lockout purpose - I think it helps prevent gearing alts, etc. I’d keep everything the same for RWF (and then for the Hall of Fame).

After Hall of Fame? Cross-realm raiding is already opened, get rid of lockouts, and sure why not cross-realm flex raiding? Let everyone get in there if they want.

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When 10 and 25 had different loot tables, 25 also had higher ilvl, that usually meant that in Blizzard’s eyes, it deserved better rewards.

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Which is fine to me. If Mythic 10-man dropped 246/252 that would be perfectly acceptable to me.

Mythic raiding but with keys.

Even if we ignore raid buffs, smaller raid sizes will probably make class stacking on particular fights more beneficial and harder for the average group.

It will also limit the design space blizzard has to work with, look back to Mythic Gh’uun for an example of a fight that would need design changes I’d the raid size dropped (4 warlock, and some teleport classes hard required before it was nerfed)

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Obviously you’ve a good point about raid design, however that’s an issue for Blizzard to solve around buff, strategies…etc

I still think that changing from heroic that’s allowed from 10+ players to 30 for a 20 fixated number, just form a wall for multiple raid groups that don’t change to Mythic because they need 20 and only have 13-17 players and you don’t need 20, usually back ups are required, since you’re using the time for 20+ players.

Then you also need to take into account established guilds. My guild has a pretty solid 25 player roster, and suddenly dropping the raid size to 15 will probably mean someone (or multiple someones) are getting lobbed through no fault of their own, and that feels pretty bad.

no, 15 is too many. i can only get 14 people together regularly. it should have been 14.

Mythic needs to be changed. Say my guild only downs tarra and eye for the week, why the F cant I go join another grp to continue on Nine, etc. This is for any mythic raid just using SOD as an example.

The current mythic lockout only made sense in a world where bonus rolls existed. Since that is no longer the case, converting it to a boss loot lock would be great (although, this is probably an expansion level change, not a patch level one).

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Sure, why not.

It’s a game and game are meant to be fun and things like structure and rules create restriction and restrictions are not fun.

In fact, let’s make raids completely accessible to everyone as soon as it drops.

All difficulties:
a) queueable
b) 1 to infinite players
c) the holy trinity of tank/damage/heals no longer needed
d) scales to lowest ilvl in the party
e) no lockouts of any kind
f) everyone in the party gets a copy of any reward drops
g) skips for players who only want to defeat certain bosses for their particular loot

Then I can have fun soloing Mythic raids in my open world questing greens during the relevant expansion instead of feeling left out and lonely :cry: when I have to wait until two or more expansions later.

This bullet point seems out of place compared to the rest of the post. Normal and Heroic doesn’t have to have fixed just because mythic is. And a flexible mythic difficulty would be much harder to tune, during Cataclysm they were never able to make mythic 10 and 25 equal.

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No it shouldn’t have been 20 was fine and was intended to allow approximately 2 of each class.

Honestly I don’t care why it was that number. The only thing I know is that it messed up my group, we haven’t been able to do the hardest content since then, and I like them too much to just up and leave to find a mythic guild. Beside, main tank is a tough spot to get in a new group.

You know what’s even worse get 20 players with mindset + backup players and align timezones on LATAM realms, because on one country rigth now it’s 12pm and other 1pm, other 3PM…

Tank really isn’t a hard spot to get if you are good at it. Most players end up stuck tanking because they don’t trust others to do it there is a world of difference nit just in terms of damage output but survival as a tank in whether or not you maximize your rotation. Now is probably the best time to be looking as well since guilds look to have their tanks set before starting new content.