Posting this in the event some Blizzard CS agent or a QA balance tester sees it and decides to argue with a class designer that some or all of these changes should be implemented in Shadowlands.
Let us camo for 6 seconds in combat
Half the cooldown of Aspect of the Cheetah
Either Hunter’s Mark off global, or have it affect any MM Hunter using Mark
Pets heal to full after dismissing and leaving combat
Toggle Chameleon on and off
If the primary target of rapid fire dies, and there are still other targets, it keeps firing the duration as long as there are targets
Double tap off global
Nothing major here, just more similar to how some of these abilities /used/ to work
You used to be able to change targets. However doing this meant constant Los checks. Moving it back to this would mean getting rid of it ignoring los and of the ability to disengage during the ability.
Precise shots needs to go and Arcane Shot needs to have it’s damaged buffed slightly to compensate. Right now having all our burst tied to Aimed Shot is not a good thing, it makes the spec way to reliant on Aimed Shot and there are many situations where casting it is not feasible. The damage sacrifice MM faces because of not being able to cast Aimed Shot is far too steep because of how Precise Shots currently functions. Careful Aim should replace Precise Shots as the spec passive ability.
Yeah, it’s not going to happen. Look, realistically, if Blizzard cared even a bit about balancing the specs for the next few months, they’d try to get MM to scale a bit better with stats but they haven’t even bothered dialing those few knobs.
This is literally a preview of what we’re going to see in SL: BM as the Swiss Army knife spec that does everything well and scales ridiculously well with gear, and MM as the “slow-and-steady” spec that has one of the worst payoffs to one of the most restrictive abilities in the entire class.
I said it once and I’ll say it again: MM is basically a guy with a gun. Now, I know there aren’t a lot of games out there with guns and goodness only knows they don’t actually show up in movies and television, and Blizzard is a small indie company, so I will give their absolute ineptitude a pass here. After all, there isn’t a whole lot of source material to go with: guns are very hard to come by in America.
Yeah, it’s going to be BM dominance all over again, bet.
Personally, I like that aimed shot does a lot of damage. I’d rather they just lower its cast time so it’s easier to use on the move. Or even better allow it to be casted while moving but I doubt that will happen.
Or just remove it entirely, or at least remove the damage buff portion. Peeps talk about it as an iconic ability, but we’re balanced around having it active. All it really is, mechanically, is something we’re required to cast before we start dealing damage, and a nerf to our ability to damage secondary targets / AoE. Not too big of a deal on a single-target raid fight, but on ones we have to retarget regularly (which are a fair chunk of them in any given tier), or ones with AoE adds, or in M+, it gets to be a pain fast.
Removing it from the GCD would just mean we macro it into everything. This was actually how it was in BfA alpha, and they put it on GCD because everyone just macroed it into all of their abilities. If we just macro it in, why even have it buff damage? It’s basically passive with an extra step at that point.
Really, it should be a purely utility ability. It should let us see through stealth/invis on that target, and then have some secondary effect that can be useful but isn’t required, like increasing the range of our attacks (or maybe all ranged attacks, hunter raid buff ftw) on the target by 5yd. No damage buff, so it isn’t even slightly required in most PvE content, but it’d still probably be used on raid bosses just for the extra flexibility.
Thats fair, but removing Precise Shots also helps during trueshot. If you get two charges of Precise Shots for instance, you will only cast one Arcane Shot after Aimed and that depends on having Master Marksmen, otherwise you wont have enough focus to dump your Aimed Shot charges. It doesn’t feel good to let those Arcane Shots go to waste atm.
In terms of PvP balance though it’s better to have more ways of doing damage rather than one ability that either almost one shots or hits like a wet noodle and thats assuming you get the opportunity to cast it in the first place.
I absolutely HATE “compromise” posts that don’t actually solve anything.
We don’t need a vanish, we need a camo that works continuously like it did for 6 years, so we can actually, you know, HUNT.
Useless. We don’t need more speed every 1.5 mins, we need more speed ALL THE TIME. You know, like we had for 12 years.
It doesn’t need to be removed from the GCD. It should be a choice you make; a button you press. It doesn’t need to have a 1.5s CD though. It could be a 0.5s GCD and it would solve all the problems while retaining choice and agency.
Heal your pet. Its not a big deal. This is a non-issue.
This one I agree with. It is currently idiotic.
As explained above there is a necessary trade-off here. I personally would rather be able to hit targets that LOS me and swap targets. You can’t really have both. I mean, maybe you can, but it would take some coding. Its a non-trivial change, since no other spell works that way.
Agreed.
You forgot the necessary removal of Precise Shots. It destroys the math of the spec and MUST be removed before MM can ever work properly. Careful Aim also needs to be removed or changed to a straight +crit chance on mobs above 80% health (like it was for years). Both of these in their current iteration require our regular shots to be weak. #feelsbadman
Except having it on any CD and having damage tied to it baseline means it’s not a choice. Our damage is going to be balanced around having hunter’s mark. So any time it’s not up means we’re going to be doing sub-optimal damage. HM needs to be removed from the GCD and the damage buff needs to be changed into something more interesting otherwise, again, it’s not a choice it’s required to dps.
After leaving combat is a bit much, but if I dismissed it because I needed a different pet in that moment when I re-summon it later, it shouldn’t be almost dead.
It does several things. Its a choice on what mob we want to maximize damage. its a choice if we want to keep someone from being able to stealth from us. It also limits us in target switching. I have no problem with limiting target switching. It was a common thing for many years. I do have a problem with it feeling punishing however. A 1.5s CD feels punishing in the current game.
Meh. Its a choice. Not everything needs to be handed to you on a silver platter at every GCD.
It’s not a choice. It’s something you NEED to always keep up, even in AoE situation, in order to perform good.
Always visible, stealth when we stop moving, but unable to be targeted - affected by direct range spell / skills.
We don’t. It’s fine like it is. Same situation we’ve had in the past. It’s just that now there’s a new class with high mobility, DH.
Can be abused, it is a big deal. Faster regen while outside of combat is a solution however.
Careful aim doesnt need to be changed at all, but it is in a weird row in SL. Its either that or two aoe focused talents. For the crit part look at SL talent’s first row.
How does it destroy the spec? Its working fine with it…
Well yes and no, you kinda abuse it in AoE pack on weaker mobs for the trigger effect. IF focus is an issue with your build.
I have a choice of which target I want to take the most damage. I have a choice of whether or not to do ANY bonus damage or keep that rogue from stealthing on me. Hunters Mark is a ton of choice. Just because you don’t use it that way, doesn’t mean others don’t.
You obviously didn’t play hunter in MoP/WoD.
We are a kiting class that can’t kite. We need kiting tools, not speed CDs.
What can be abused?
Sure.
It causes Aimed Shot to be a weak shot, despite having a very long cast time. It is among the worst abilities on any class because it RUINS the main damaging ability.
It does three things.
It puts nearly 60% of our damage into Aimed Shot. Precise Shot damage is just Aimed Shot damage in disguise. It forces the spec to stand still to do any meaningful damage. I am fine with MM having a stand still heavy nuke, but we need more damage as mobile as well. We are a kiting class without the tools to kite, and insufficient mobile damage.
Arcane Shot is weak JUST so that Precise Shot can do decent damage. If Precise Shots damage was gone, all that damage could be put into Arcane Shot. This would make it feel worth using outside of Precise Shots (it currently feels so weak as to be worthless) and it would solve the mobile damage problem.
Precise Shots does so much damage per global/focus that it takes priority over all talents that cost focus and globals. It makes it so that talents that cost focus and globals are always a DPS loss over talents that don’t, because they are automatically a lower priority than Precise Shots.
It is literally the worst mechanic (mathematically speaking) of any class.
A mechanic providing a choice does not make it a good mechanic. I’m not sure how you think Hunter’s Mark being baseline is going to help MM or any spec.
Its a choice for PvP, yes that I wont deny. In PvE, MM’s aoe is all done via the main target you hit, which it isnt a choice to have marks or not.
The old camo wasn’t a pure stealth. It was if you stopped moving, but otherwise you were a white shade moving and couldnt be hit by range targeted skills.
Yes, and we already have the tools.
An example would be in PvP in SL with the 6 sec revive change. Pet about to die, you can retreat, feight dismiss (3secs), insta re summon full hp instead of using Exi to heal it. Its some sort of example.
I wouldn’t call a 1 sec / 1.5 sec a very long cast time ( That is currently what you get once properly geared) How does it “ruins” the main dmg ability ? Its merely a boost for the start and end of a fight.
“I can choose which target I want to take the most damage” … except there is always going to be “the optimal choice”, “the mechanically required choice”, and “the focus target of everyone else”. Nothing but an illusion of choice there. On ST, choosing to have it on or not, is choosing to do full dps or sub-optimal dps.
If your main target dies, then its a choice whether or not its worth the global. It is absolutely a min/max choice. Whether or not it is a FUN choice is up to the individual. I like min/max choices, and I LOVE the choice in PvP. Therefore, to me, it is a truly awesome, even hunter defining ability.
A bad mechanic is one that does not provide any agency or choice. A terrible mechanic is one that takes choice and agency out of the spec (like Precise Shots). A mechanic that provides choice is neither good nor bad just by having that quality; that quality is necessary but not sufficient. I have shown that Hunter’s Mark provides meaningful choice in both PvE and PvP. Whether or not it is good would then be determined by whether or not it is fun.
Fun is purely subjective. I think it is VERY fun. You do not. I do not know the majority vote on that, but the PvP component is essential, therefore it must be in the spec somewhere. I think it would be very boring if it only had the anti-stealth ability in PvP because then all choice would be gone (no more damage vs. anti-stealth choice). I think it would suck to lose the min/max choices in PvE as well. Therefore, I think it should stay. To make it feel less like hitting a brick wall during a target switch I think the CD should be reduced to 1 or 0.5s.
You are incorrect. It worked this way in Cata. In MoP it was changed (with a glyph that most who did PvP took) to be stealth while moving. Additionally the CD STARTED when it was pressed (not when it ended) and was thus a permanent stealth. It was like this for all of MoP and WoD.
Every single PvP ranking for the entirety of the expansion suggest otherwise.
So we both agree it is a bad idea?
I stopped playing in 2.5 because my favorite spec was utter trash (and had been since 7.0). It was nowhere near that fast when I quit. Regardless, I care nothing for how it is now because it won’t be that way in Shadowlands for a LONG time.
Because if it didn’t have that bonus damage during the 80/20 phase it could do a LOT more damage ALL the time. Its base damage was nerfed repeatedly because it kept one-shotting people in PvP, all because of the mandatory Careful Aim talent.