I can top charts in mythic 0-8 and be competitive in 9-10 as arcane but with fire it seems like i can only do okish 5-10k dps durring combustion and trinket cool downs. Otherwise im doing 2.5k to 3k dps outside of cool downs. Im juat not seeing why its considered the best pve mage spec.
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Honestly on keys that low it wouldn’t matter what spec you picked. As far as your rotational misplays (if any) nobody can tell or predict what you did wrong/right unless they have a look at your logs.
You’ll get better responses if you post your logs on the mage discord (in the fire section) and ask for feedback. As of right now it’s anyone’s guess.
Fire needs large, coordinated pulls around combustion and a well executed rotation to do well. If you don’t have those things then Fire is pretty average or even bad depending on how scuffed they are.
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It sounds like you might be undergeared or doing Combustion wrong.
Mages can easily pull 20k on opener ST (with Hero and/or Pride) and your Combusts on 4+ stacked targets should also be 20k at least and up to 30-40k depending on number of targets.
But Fire Mage DPS a) is highly gear-dependent, b) is tank-dependent, and c) relies on your targets not dying during Combust or immediately after on AoE pulls. Arcane and/or Frost Mages can do more in lower level dungeons depending on affixes, the tank, etc. Also note that Fire Mage has poor cleave so pulls with two and three targets aren’t great for the spec.
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Overall is really sort of misleading in mythic plus. If your tank is pulling one pack at a time, you’ll be beaten by most classes in low to midrange keys. The burst you can bring on the tough pulls is much more important than the overall.
As long as you time it and you aren’t way behind everyone else, you’re doing fine.
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Fire’s damage output lives and dies for their combustion window. That’s how it’s been for the last couple expansions.
Honestly, in keys where things die too quickly you won’t have great numbers because there will be no time for ignite and overlapped flame patches to ramp up. So, basically fire is at it’s strongest in keys where you can fully exploit combust from pack to pack.
If you rely on pug groups that won’t play to fire’s advantages you’re not gonna get the numbers that arcane can put out with it’s more constant and reliable aoe output.
That being said, if you’re not beating equally geared arcane/frost mages on boss damage then you definitely are doing something wrong.
Fire in m+ works best in large coordinated pulls where the tank knows to keep mobs in your flame patch to maximise your damage. The reason fire is seen as one of the best classes for m+ is its uncapped potential for high, on-demand burst damage on a low cooldown.
Whilst this is can be somewhat diminished when pugging or when doing lower keys due to mobs not being alive as long, you should be having no issues with maintaining strong dps in any form of content.
This is of course provided that you are doing the rotation correctly, have the correct soulbinds, conduits, legendaries etc.
Also knowing when to combust and when to hold it can affect your dps greatly, but that just comes with experience with the content.
The thing that makes fire the META spec is just a cheap gimmick, basically. It’s all about using the uncapped AOE to game huge pulls. Outside of combustion a fire mage does tank-level dps, and on a longer fight like a tyrannical boss, fire cannot compete with frost even WITH combustion. Frost sims higher than fire, and people will tell me that’s irrelevant because fire is more mobile, but a decently played frost mage does not have mobility problems. It’s a little trickier and requires better timing, but frost can be very mobile, and the frozen winds legendary helps a lot.
Hmm seems pretty sus to me. I don’t think you have any data to back up your points.
Let’s see:
20 Theatre of Pain
Tyranical/Raging/Quaking
Affront of Challengers (3 Target—which supposedly Frost is great at)
Group #1 (129 second kill) -
222 Fire (9.8K)
Group #2 (146 second kill) -
228 Fire (9.9k)
225 Frost (8.1K)
Gorechop
Group #1 (150 second kill)
222 Fire (5.70K)
Group #2 (155 second kill)
228 Fire (7.52K)
225 Frost (5.77K)
Modretha
Group #1 (176 second kill) -
222 Fire (5.771K)
Group #2 (187 second kill) -
228 Fire (4.919K)
225 Frost (4.909K)
These were taken out of the top logs for ToP20 with these affixes, using the Top Fire Mage that week (Group 1) and the Top Frost Mage (Group 2)—Group 2 also happened to include another Fire mage along with the Frost Mage, so I included data from that player as well.
I excluded the random mechanic bosses (Xav and Kul). All kills were within 20 seconds of the other group. Group 1’s Fire Mage was the lowest ilvl at 222, Group 2’s Fire Mage the highest at 228, the Frost Mage falling in the middle at 225.
You have the Frost player etching out only one Fire mage (the 222), on only one fight, and by only 70 dps. It did not beat the one that was unexpectedly worse out of the two Fire Mages (when taking their ilvls into account) on that fight though, and the Frost was below the 222 on the other two fights.
I can link the logs as soon as WCL stops crashing on my phone.
Partially agree, but at the same time not really. You are right in that is what makes it Meta for higher keys. Because most groups that are familiar with the makeup of their group and pushing high keys are able to cater to strengths of specs like Fire.
However, when you take pug groups doing average keys into account, Fire still has strengths beyond its uncapped AoE. It can easily burst down Prides, priority adds, and do good AoE damage when the tank does do a decent pull. With Combustion on a 1-1.3ish minute CD, Fire is still a strong spec beyond its uncapped AoE.
Beyond that it offers DB stun which is a useful utility, a cheat death, and a second cheat death (from NF Covenant—although I’m not sure why people would go DreamWeaver, but it is still possible).
Again you aren’t wrong, but this is for maybe a minute and a half.
Fire is overeated, and will get spanked by a top tier frost or arcane mage in high end mythic unless the group is literally coordinating around the fire mage. Things like the first pull on DoS, HoA and NW carry fire mage damage through half the dungeon due to the rigged uncapped aoe. Unless the group is doing pulls like that consistantly around combust, fire is like average. The notion that fire is necessary for groups and god tier meta comes pretty much solely from mdi groups pushing mid 20 keys that they are completing through the uncapped aoe gimmick that will hopefully get nerfed in 9.1. Otherwise as arcane I frequently clap meta specs like fire, boom, outlaw etc. Its only when groups try to pull like I’m a fire mage that things get rough.
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See what I don’t understand is why people use subjective, anecdotal, meter data to make sweeping statements about specs. There is no doubt in my mind that you “clap” meta specs. However, when you look at logs they tell a different story for Arcane Mages, maybe not for Raistlin, but for the spec as a whole.
Top Runs for Each Spec (granted I am using “logs” because leaderboard doesn’t give the breakdown of dps—also the data below is based on overall team points; however, I break it down by character more towards the end)
Mists 15 (Tyranical/Bolstering/Storming)
Arcane- 6,050.5
Fire- 6,456.0
Frost- 5,773.0
ToP 18 (Fort/Burst/Volc)
Arcane- 4,564.9
Fire- 5,139.8
Frost- 4,380.3
I made sure not to use those three dungeons.
So taking high end Mythic into account:
I used level 22 (highest logs for Arcane Mage–along with the only two completed–PF and Mists; on the weeks they were completed: PF: Fort/Burst/Volc & Mists: Fort/Spite/Greiv)
Mists:
Arcane-6,285.8 (note there was also a Fire Mage in this group as well: 6,806.0)
Fire-10,335.0
Frost-9,179.5
PF:
Arcane-5,154.8
Fire-4,895.4
Frost-5,293.2 (Fire mage also in the group: 5,310.4)
Granted this data was pulled from top team score . . . it gets worse if we do character damage and character damage to bosses . . . and I would venture to guess that the soul two Arcane Logs and under five Frost for these two dungeons (same logs as before) would qualify these players as top tier in that spec at higher keys. Finally, you can’t “pull around combustion” for boss damage which Fire beat both in as well (see below).
Damage by Character
Mists:
Arcane-6,508.5
Fire-10,344.1
Frost-9,059.8
PF:
Arcane-5,044.2
Fire-9,346.6
Frost-5,188.2
Damage to Bosses by Character
Mists:
Arcane-1,831.5
Fire-2,424.2
Frost-2,189.3
PF:
Arcane-1,577.9
Fire-2,552.9
Frost-1,811.1
Personally, I am not vying for Fire. I genuinely love Arcane. What I am doing is trying to put empirical data out there rather than a Frost mage saying that Fire can’t compete with Frost on a Tyrannical Boss and an Arcane Mage claiming that top tier Frost and Arcane players will outperform Fire when the data indicates neither.
That’s true of course and pugs never really take advantage of that as they aren’t making very big pulls…or at least not on purpose lol. Burst is just valued more than sustained, even if that uncapped aoe isn’t being taken advantage of.
That doesn’t mean frost is bad in keys. I’ve seen some great ones, but the stigma that frost is bad just hasn’t gone away, even 2 buffs later.
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I understand. I also dont take it personally. The logs you are using, however, while the best empirical evidence we have, are also subjective and flawed. Since they are character driven based on individual runs, there are no controls to manage or compare the raw numbers. You dont know why in any of those given situations the fire mage is doing more damage then an arcane mage or frost mage. Perhaps the firemage is popping their cds on a large trash pack while a frost or arcane mage is doing so to down a pride. Maybe the fire mage is getting pi. Maybe the number of fire mage logs is so large in relation to frost or arcane that they can’t be realistically compared at all. That’s the issue with current castle nathria mythic logs that have arcane ranked sixth while not taking into account that there are less than like 20 logs total for arcane on the last three bosses compared to thousands for other classes, especially fire. Maybe the fire mages pulling those numbers could pull even more if they rolled arc, but dont do so because its simply harder. The top mage parse for the longest time on sludge (might still be) was apmvbillion who is an arc mage. There are too many variables that are unaccounted for using numbers from warcraft logs to make a reliable statistically based opinion. All that aside, I’m not saying that fire isn’t a powerful spec. It is, one of the best. It is that way though due to a number of factors that arent tied specifically to raw output but rather player choices. Will I beat a fire mage in damage in a key if the group is pulling around combust to maximize its damage? Hell no not even close. Will I beat a fire mage in a pug that is pulling one pack at a time which is the usual approach? Hell yes. That is all I’m trying to convey.
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While I do get and respect this argument, as I said I just really seem to have it out when people push subjective stuff as objective fact. Like I believe it is 100% fine to say “I beat Fire Mages as Arcane.” but what I tend to have issues with is the “Arcane beats Fire, because I can beat Fire Mages as an Arcane.”
You are right—we don’t know why the Fire Mage’s damage is higher than the Arcane’s, we weren’t in the group (although logs I looked at I tried to make sure that it wasn’t because of PI)—but speaking from a “blind” POV . . . However, you also can’t make these claims—
—and then when presented with a counter-argument, say “well we don’t know what was happening in that group.” The question becomes, how do you know that a Top Tier Frost/Arcane Mage will “spank” a Fire Mage if you yourself are saying logs are faulty?
A great question. I suppose I cannot with a wide brush. A better way to put it would be that a top tier arcane mage or frost mage can beat the average fire mage, even in top tier content. Perhaps not the absolute top, 26 keys, but in the 15 to 20 ish range? Absolutely. My biggest gripe is that arc and frost mages are thought to be completely unviable key breakers that u should never take. For the overwhelming majority of content that players see, however, that’s not true, and a really skilled arc or frost mage can hold their own and even dominate over fire mages. We all shouldn’t be held thrall to output numbers seen in mdi elite groups that revolve around uncapped fire mage aoe, because that is such a fraction of a fraction of a percent as to be irrelevant to most us.
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So if I have a problem with the rest of your post I’ll edit (because I didn’t read past this part, but this is 100% something I can agree to and it completely fixes what my entire problem has been with your argument. I would add, and maybe you mention it, is that one of the biggest reasons this is the case is because the people playing Frost and Arcane are those who are dedicated and versed in the specs.
Many play Fire because it is the Meta, but “many” includes sub-par Mages as well. I would say the caliber of Mages doing higher level content as Arcane and Frost truly know the specs, and will edge out Mediocre Fire players. This is especially true when it comes to M+ Trash in Pugs with a tank who does not cater to Fire.
I agree to pretty much all of this as well. I think the issue comes down to community perception that actually isn’t because of Fire being the meta—while this might exacerbate it, I don’t believe it is the root. The issue comes down to two different reasons, separate for Frost and Arcane in my opinion.
I’ll discuss Frost first. Frost was terrible post-Nerfs at the start of the expansion. Everyone knew this and heard about their gutting. You had Frost Mages who still tried to make it work with Venthyr, but this only dug them into a whole because it was apparent that the spec was just not doing well despite the covenant.
This was confounded with the issue of it doing pretty decent AoE or average ST, but couldn’t really do both because of the split legendaries. Fire on the other hand could do excellent AoE and above average/great ST because Fevered Incantation was strong for both. Now that Frost has been buffed multiple times and it does have a legendary that allows for it to gain on ST or AoE—freezing winds . . . the community is likely still in the mindset of Frost not being able to compete with Fire. This issue likely persists due to the lack of Frost Mages in keys (because Blizzard essentially forced Covenant switches if Frost Mages wanted to play Mage—I.e. NF Fire).
Arcane’s situation is similar in a way, but its roots go back to BFA. Arcane has always been able to hold its own in keys in certain respects, but not many people play the spec—and moreover—not many people play the spec well. It had the reputation as a meme spec. People just aren’t familiar with Arcane and many people in groups aren’t exposed to it enough to realize its strengths. Arcane suffered from the one-or-the other in BFA. It was either decent AoE with struggling Single Target or great ST with sub-par aoe, this was due to Azerite Traits and talent pigeon-holing. Now people are probably aware that it got a rework, but most probably have no clue where the spec actually stands, so it goes into the “oh, you aren’t Fire . . .” category.
Frankly, a Nerf to Fire’s uncapped AoE won’t solve the issue, because many pugs aren’t used to actually seeing Fire’s uncapped AoE in action. So even if there was a cap on Flamepatch, for the majority of the player-base, it would not be something that apparent.
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The thing with M+ logs is not very many runs are posted as logs in the 15-20 range. It’s showing top runs for arcane at like 7k, but I pull 8k+ in a few dungeons. Unless it’s spires, pf, or top, I’m probably pulling 7k min. The logs just don’t have much data in that 15-20 range, so using m+ logs as evidence is sketchy.
That being said, stats do trend. If most logs are showing fire ahead in that content, a larger sample size is likely to trend in the same direction, suggesting that fire will be pulling more damage. Just looking at things logically, there’s no way a good fire mage would do less damage than arcane in any coordinated group that is aware of how a fire mage actually works. The amount of pugs I’ve queued into that understand that though…lol good luck.
Only the truly uneducated think that way. Most people that know how the meta works know what they’re getting with each spec. Personally I think all 3 specs are extremely viable for different reasons in m+. I’ve even recommended a friend go frost because he wanted to go fire for meta (he’s ret paly main) but frost suits the way his tank pulls better. And personally, out of the 3 specs I’d say Arcane is absolutely the funnest in keys because Arcane Orb can actually be chosen again. I would like to not have to choose between ST and AOE though to be fully viable (aka having to be night fae for the big aoe really hurts the ST)
That actually sums up both specs very well when encountering them in pugs. Frost on average can be decent but carries that stigma from post release nerfs. Arcane…I am always intrigued to take an arcane mage but any time I see one I can’t help but critique what they aren’t doing right. There’s a much higher chance you’ll get an arcane mage doing things wrong than doing things right because the rotation is very second to second in terms of casting changes. Contrary to popular belief (and so many mages even believe this) it isn’t AB or AE spam to maximize your damage windows.
I will say currently my gripe with Arcane is being unable to do significant ST in keys as well as having very bad threat issues which they haven’t fixed since wrath.