the killing of the 3 adds depended on them being cleaved, because the dps required to singletarget them was not achievable at the time. however, 10mans might vary wildly in cleave capabilities due to comp.
Perhaps that means it’s not a mechanic that handles comp diversity well in the first place, hardly a good thing to try to balance in a game where mid-tier reworks could completely change any spec’s damage profile.
I think it’s ironic that most objections to anything that might cause balancing challenges seems to come from some delusional perspective that those problems would only exist if something was changed. The reality is that all those problems are there, on top of the ones we’re feel compelled to discuss.
For the record, I think Flex would benefit from being a smaller range. Maybe 15-25 at max.
1 Like
you dont remember the 10man? they did one add.
one.
not even 2.
I know what they did. I was talking about different solutions.
Trust me when I say that I’ve done 12-man Nymue and it sucks. A lot. The soaks and bombs are being covered by ~4 players. Whatever testing and tuning was done on this boss fell barely inside the legal confines of those words. Tindral’s seeds are the same. 12 players, something like 30-40 seeds. Not well ‘flexed.’
1 Like
I understand what you are saying, but the existence of satisfying flexible normal and heroic tunings of the encounters belie that any more certainty is required for the highest raid difficulty. You could certainly tune heroic encounters up to mythic standards in terms of required damage and healing and have satisfyingly challenging fights.
Additional mechanics to juggle are fun, but it’s hardly scaling that limits the possibilities, especially when there is so much variety in the tuning of damage and healing output profiles among the thirteen classes as-is, never mind a pretty broad variety in capability across the raid teams daring to attempt mythic progression. They just don’t want to do it, maybe because they are too fixated on building fixed challenges for the very top guilds to solve competitively rather than a change that would make the difficulty vastly more accessible for a much greater portion of their player base.
It seems mad to me that with their core player base aging into a time of their lives where they have overall less time to devote to WoW, they would continue to keep the highest difficulty so organizationally difficult to access. You would think the success of flex raids at the other difficulties and scaling M+ would be convincing.
1 Like
Go take a rest, summer ahead! Cata classic coming, alot of stuff outside of wow also happening. It’s good to take a break sometimes
I did take off the last few weeks, was nice to get a break.
But the sad thing is, I really love raiding with my guild. And we are not cutting edge, but we are good enough where AOTC is not much of a challenge. Like, I actually want to spend the summer playing with my friends and having fun pushing mythic. But managing a mythic guild’s roster isn’t fun, and honestly it has cost me several friends.
There is all the worry about guilds dropping people for some optimal size, but that’s not how most raiding guilds work. Ideally, you want most of your raiders in when you can, so that they all learn the fight. Spacing mechanics are harder with more people, but soaking tends to be easier, as do adds and CC. If you absolutely have to to get that first kill, you might bench people, but that is a last resort. And again, that is still much better than the status quo, where you have to bench people every single night. People are already getting sat, allowing raid to flex (even slightly, I’m fine with 15-25 or even 17-23 for balance reasons, especially initially) would actually get more people in raid, not less. Sure, pugs do look for an “optimal” size ratio, but pugs are not guilds and they work very differently.
Some of the fights are very well designed, others have some pretty glaring issues. Guilds adapt, raid teams adapt- that’s actually part of the fun. I would be happy to have to adjust to the mechanics, even if it slightly harder with whichever number of people. We’ve done this entire tier with more melee than ranged, and two melee healers. Did it make things harder than if we had a better ratio? Absolutely! Larodar and Nymue especially were rough at times! But we did it! That’s an accomplishment too. I would imagine there are more guilds like mine, doing the best we can with the people we want to play with, rather than the guilds that try and do everything “optimally”. So let us play on “hard mode” for mythic if we want. Put the onus on how to adjust on us, that’s the glory of raiding. Let me do a harder encounter if I want, you don’t have to protect me from myself. But stop forcing me to bench people just for some arbitrary idea of “balance”, which doesn’t even exist with the variety of classes and players in the game.
1 Like
Hate to come off as toxic but why is the guy with 0 mythic kills this tier trying to argue semantics with the guy that currently has killed mythic fyrakk twice? I feel like you’re talking out of a place of sheer ignorance as you don’t even engage with the content you’re trying to have a discourse about. This is the exact same as if I went into a restaurant and argued with the chef about how to cook my burger. As someone also currently suffering through this new form of torture the devs have given us I agree with what brewa is saying as it’s something I’ve wished for since the end of BFA
1 Like
Oh, you came off as toxic, but more because you did not read further replies, which you might see answered some questions you have.
In short, maybe I am looking at it from making more accessible for guilds like mine.
On another note, I may be ignorant about Mythic raiding, but I am not so about HUMAN NATURE, which made up most of my arguments. Brewa and I were not actually disagreeing as much as discussing certain aspects and the like.
Maybe before doing an armory check and trying to denounce someone as ignorant, you look at it from different angles and see if it is not mythic raiding they are arguing about but something like people gaming the system, which people can and will do in the lower raid difficulties, if flex was implemented. Or is that too much to ask from a donkey’s rear end that can’t see beyond their own narrow view?
I haven’t even got past Gnarlroot on mythic yet with a 475 ilvl because people don’t know mechanics or stand in stuff and overwork the healers. it’s sad the Guild thing is so prominent that it’s the only way to get anywhere in raiding, I don’t understand how people can’t use the community finder and that option instead of what their used too… And I really do Understand the multiple endless reasons or excuses but something I don’t understand is the reactions of some. I get treated so poorly in this game because of my playstyle, it’s amazing. I still play. It’s not hard to want to keep playing but sometimes it’s gotten bad to that point I’ve Lashed out irrationally at players behavior and unsportsmanlike ethics. And I’ve watched some videos on raids and all but the problem I see is they don’t just talk about the “Storyline” of What happens. Like Starts out like this, then this happens then this. Maybe I’m just not finding the right videos to relate to…At all… obviously… It’s nice to help being the amazing healer I am. but I try not to do it too much because people don’t learn mechanics in raid finder if I heal everyone through the fight to victory. I’m Not saying I can’t do Amirdrassil Mythic I’d love to be able to finish it. But I also feel like there’s a lot of people that use up a lot of their time to purposely fail in a raid so they have no choice but to quit or ultimately pay for those raid services. Something I will never do again thanks… and no, I never paid money for one either. so, it’s not against terms. But yeah, I’ve done that before so now I’d like to just Beat it the way the game makers support. I hope. I can never really truly know someone’s intentions without really knowing them so. But I hear The Author on some of his peeves, there are people in this game that somehow create undesired feelings in another player’s gut. and can i just say the best way to react to that stuff is Don’t ever let another person to determine what you do in life or a game… even if it seems like it works. you should be able to freely play the way you want too. and i think that the raiding is dwindling because of the other activities that the game offers. and the Streaming side of gaming influencing mitigation to other games to make money and a living and all that. And of course, end game content is fulfilled by most. And let’s not overlook the fact some have outplayed their playing journey. I try to stick to playing few characters just so I can utilize my time the best way I can. I’m really Just on the fence about how I’m getting forced into a guild just to be able to raid a mythic and possibly you know, Get that far and all… it’s coming down to that recently. and I’ve told recruiters before I don’t do the guild thing. I just don’t like it. I feel like it’s very bad for my personal interests and it really screws with my playstyle. So, I just don’t do the guild thing. sorry not sorry. I wish I could be a bit more social with people I play with but it seems like I do most of the engagement and hardly ever get any back 100%. We Got friend lists, community options, Discord, which is great btw there are so many servers for World of Warcraft it’s amazing. Community Discord Servers - Wowhead Not to mention I’ve mad my own server with updates sent right to the channel of my choice.
Awesomeness yeah you all have a good day Tho I’m going back to gaming.
I sorry, I’m struggling because I don’t quite understand why you are arguing against flex when it would allow your guild to experience mythic. Like, part of why I think this would be a good change is also to make mythic more accessible, allow guilds like yours access to mythic. I understand you have worries about optimal numbers, and class buffs, but is your guild so tryhard that this would actually affect anything? Cause if not, this seems like it would only be beneficial for you, and I’m kind of confused about where you are coming from to be honest.
And even the worries about human nature, part of the reason for guilds is getting people together, doing stuff for the good of the group, not just themselves. People do still want loot, do want to progress, do want all of that, but guilds help by aligning your selfish desires with the good of the group. Maybe you didn’t get the trinket this week, but if you run with the same people, you have a better chance next time, and you will kill even more bosses now that the group is stronger. Flex would make guilds stronger, by allowing smaller guilds the chance to progress together. It would emphasize group interest over individual interest slightly, because you don’t have to pug people that will take loot and then not contribute back to the group. It would remove that feeling of alienation that people feel from being benched. From a human nature/psychological viewpoint, I see it having so many benefits.
As far as pugs/group finder goes… equation is very different there, so I can understand why viewing things from that perspective would lead to hesitance. But, that is kind of the nature of a pick up group anyways. Everyone is there for their own interest. We can’t fix that. But making things more accessible for guilds will reduce the barrier for entry, so that people need to pug less, which will still make things better.
Edit: slightly reworded first sentence, added paragraph regarding pugs/groupfinder
My position is more along the lines of go ahead and make it flex if possible BUT set the lower end higher then normal flex and the higher end at what ever one deems sufficient.
You were confused because you likley looked at it as a black and white issue, I was either for or against it. I actually live in the gray, I.E. make the flex range smaller then the normal flex range.
Even Brewa said he did not know what the low end should be, but argued that the high end should be like 30. The low end I set, 15, was based off of what my guild can easily field or fill with pugs if need be. To sum it up:
M raiding as flex:
same range as normal, 10-30; might be a bit harder to balance due to missing buffs and the like
Adjusted range, 15-25/30-enables guilds like mine to attempt the first few bosses/try Mythic out after getting AotC and covers all “needed” buffs/debuffs if you don’t overload on certain classes
Starting at current low end, 20, no changes for ones like me or my guild (not tryhard by anymeans).
Again thogh, there are often 3 “groups” in arguments like this:
- for it
- against it
- for it with adjustments/concessions/tweaks/etc.
Ones like me are in the 3rd group
1 Like
Thank you for the clarification!~ Yes, we are in agreement then haha. I actually started arguing for 17-23 over five years ago, and have been radicalized into supporting a wider range since, but any amount of flex would be preferable to not. I’m also open to adjusting the exact numbers in order to accommodate the needs of both the players and the devs, like I think 17-23 would be possible with purely numerical scaling, no need for mechanical, which would mean they could turn on flex with much less dev work. So I still think a larger range is preferable, like 15 would make mythic accessible to guilds like yours, and a wider range would help even more guilds, but any amount of flex would be such a quality of life improvement that I’m not set on any specific number.