M+ pug paladin healers that come in and melee and let the group die while they sit at full mana has to stop. How do we get the word out?
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If your paladin healer isn’t meleeing and is somehow going below 80% mana, they’re doing it wrong. Played correctly, you literally cannot go OOM and you should be in melee as much as possible.
If the healer is still dropping people (who aren’t just getting hit by avoidable stuff), that is an issue, but it’s not caused by using melee attacks.
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So how do we get the word out to stop sitting in melee at full mana and letting the group die?
You don’t. You should be in melee at full mana. That’s how the class works. Healing effectively requires you to be in melee, and doesn’t cost enough mana for you to ever run OOM, even if you didn’t get a free refill from Pride every few minutes.
“Stop letting the group die” is all there is to it. If your healer is letting the group die, they suck. It has nothing to do with being in melee, and our biggest heals literally cost zero mana.
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Normalize paladins not doing 2-3x the damage of other healers while maintaining top notch utility, DR and HPS!
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Alright so, I’ve done hundreds of dungeons. I’ve seen this several times:
3rd boss Xy’exa. Everyone’s taking chip aoe dmg. Paladin is at full mana, meleeing away. As a hunter I only have Exhil, turtle and non lust pet ability. Everyone is getting low, no one is receiving significant heals, group wipes. This has happened many times costing a push DOS key.
I appreciate the sarcastic replies thus far, truly. I’m a jovial dude. But in the example above, what is a melee paladin with 100% mana doing right or wrong here.
I’m not making sarcastic replies. I am 100% serious: healing effectively as a paladin requires you to be in melee, and does not ever make you go below about 80% mana. You want to spam Crusader Strike because it generates Holy Power and resets Holy Shock; you don’t want to hardcast stuff. If this isnt’ what you’re doing as holy, you’re doing it wrong.
If the paladin is tunneling and not casting heals as people take damage, you should say so. That has nothing to do with being in melee or spending mana.
What he’s doing wrong is not paying attention.
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Ok I think I follow. But you said you don’t want to hard cast; then said to cast heals as people take dmg. From a new paly perspective that sounds contradictory.
Of course when the problem is heals, people ask the paladin to just heal instead of doing 1/3 of tank dmg. Paladins leave or refuse to contribute anything at this point though, or vitriol ensues in some way, maybe tilting the healer or someone else further. Calling people out in dungeons only goes so many ways. This is specifically a paly heals thing. This doesn’t happen with any other healers.
You don’t want to hardcast, as in, use spells that have a cast time. Holy Light and Flash of Light are weak and inefficient. Word of Glory, Holy Shock, Shock Barrier, and Beacon of Light are your main sources of healing.
For example, here is a log of me healing Xy’exa on +16 a few weeks ago.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/1QfakLbH6xY2X8jn#fight=last&pull=33&type=casts&source=1
If you go to Casts, you can see that my most-cast spells are Holy Shock, Crusader Strike, Hammer of Wrath, and Word of Glory - in that order. I have zero casts of FoL or HL.
If you go to Healing, you can see that I did over 5k HPS, with about 75% of it coming from the things I mentioned, and the rest from miscellaneous other sources.
If you go to Resources and select Mana from the dropdown, you can see that I was at essentially full mana the entire time. Sure we had Pride to buff mana regen, but that doesn’t even matter; adding up all my casts shows that I spend 33,800 mana in a 1:19 fight, and passive regen alone gives me back 31,600 mana in that time.
I also did about 1900 DPS, which was nice since it makes the boss die faster, but that’s not even the important part here. It wasn’t a compromise where I traded off healing to do damage; CS and HoW generate holy power to let me do more healing, and Judgement puts up the Judgement of Light debuff, which again is a source of healing.
If you’re fighting a boss and people are dying while the healer does 1k HPS or something, that is an issue. But the fact that the healer is in melee range and at full mana is not the reason he’s doing 1k HPS.
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Man this still feels like an elaborate troll
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Yo, I SUPER appreciate you taking the time to reply with that. Well written.
So when I’m pugging, the situation I described (in stark contrast to your performance) is all too common. It’s certainly at the point where I don’t take paly healers. 17 DOS, paly healer casted no HL or FoL, he dies first and the rest of us die, we miss the timer. Last night, 11 DOS on alts, we all outgear it, same thing, everyone ticks low, Paly literally died first again, and we miss the timer. And a multitude of of other poor paly performances to the point that it’s a meme in our circle.
Ravicana, what are they doing wrong? What advice could I relay from you? The typical responses when asking a fail paly healer what’s up: “I’m a paly healer”, “Paly is different” “learn other classes”. They never take the inquires mid dungeon the right way, and I’m looking to get through to them.
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Without being there or seeing a log or something, it’s hard to say, but it sounds like they’re just lacking in situational awareness. Playing hpal requires you to be aware of healer things and also be aware of melee things, and it’s easy to tunnel-vision on just one or the other. If you tunnel on DPS, people die to chip damage because you’re not watching them; if you tunnel on healing, you forget to not stand in fire, or you just don’t build enough holy power and fall behind on healing anyway.
If they’re doing 4k+ HPS but always die first, that sounds more like tunneling on healing. If the tank dies 20 seconds into the pull because he hasn’t received any healing, that sounds more like tunneling on damage.
They might also be managing their cooldowns badly, or panicking when things get hard. These are all issues which are especially bad for hpal, and they kinda stem from mishandling the paladin playstyle. But being in melee and at full mana aren’t, in themselves, mistakes.
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I see you mentioned they didn’t cast any FoL or HL. This is indeed correct. They SHOULD NOT cast these spells.
The only reason I bring it up is that you mentioned it like it was an issue. It is not. Its like me saying we wiped because my prot warrior never cast whirlwind.
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Ok, brother. Legit, when ppl are sitting at 25% except maybe the tank on Xy’exa, what does a holy paly do to avoid a wipe?
yea, I follow. The avg paly certainly doesn’t manage their CDs well. I never see Sac, and see BoP once a dungeon, if ever. Lots of wings though, wings for days, but it doesn’t translate into reliable healing. I think there are just a lot of players looking for carries and when you’re a holy paly just whacking a mob while someone slowly ticks down and dies, it’s very glaringly obvious you are the carry.
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Well, for sure they shouldn’t turn to their lowest-HPS spells that also don’t generate resources and can’t be used while moving! Once you account for Glimmer and Shock Barrier, using HS-CS-CS-HS is already more throughput than casting four FoLs in the same amount of time, not to mention that it also generates 4 Holy Power instead of zero.
In that situation, ideally you use Divine Toll or another cooldown to recover. Failing that, you spam out Holy Shock, Word of Glory, and if necessary Light of the Martyr, using triage to prioritize the targets in the most danger.
Roll Kyrian and press Divine Toll.
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Sounds like you had some dps paladins thinking by increasing dps means they’re doing well. Going Venthyr can cause a certain type of madness inside these folks. Also know as being trolled.
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Yeah lmao.
To be fair, only only being in melee is much more dangerous, but the second hpala gets out of melee, they can’t heal. Our (proper) healing output is directly correlated with our ability and skill to be (and survive) in melee. This is the trade off - other healers heal from a safe distance.
Also, every healer is capable of dealing damage. I’ve seen Resto druids with Moonkin affinity pull 3k average. Our ability to damage depends solely on the group’s ability not to mess up and not take avoided damage. The second you encounter a “bad” group, holy paladin’s damage goes down by solid 50-60% (halved+ )
That simply means your healer was bad. Not the class, but the actual player. I just timed DoS15 last night (Tyr+necrotic).
True again.
I haven’t been playing long as holy paladin, but I am 3 away from KSM on this alt, but I think I only had to drink ONCE in all these weeks.
@OP, holy paladins will go OOM in mere 10 flash heal casts. We don’t hard cast. We Shock+WoG for the majority of times, along with HL w/ proc only. Flash is more of an emergency baby heal while Shock got 2s CD. (And I only pop Flash on tank /w beacon to get holy power anyway)
Paladins do have a pretty high skill cap imho. See my reply above.
To be in melee, managing to use Crusader in between heals can be hard and rather challenging at times, but without it, everyone will just die as we simply do not have the means to heal the group otherwise.
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People need to stop sleeping of LotM. It’s not hot garbage like it was in BFA and the Untempered Dedication conduit makes it’s powerful and high risk/reward.
It’s my go to heal when I can’t generate resources for one or two GCD’s (CD’s/Out of Range)
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