Nobody wants 10 boss raids

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Hathranll-arthas

It isn’t, each week you get better at beating them so it takes like 10 min or so to beat them, assuming you have 10 bosses, with trash clearing you should be able to do the raid within 2 hours of game time.

Eh, not necessarily. First reclear can be sketchy, subbing in new players / significantly changing comps can result in wipes due to unfamiliarity. Making raids longer often just results in people extending sooner and seeing less boss kills total until farm.

[Voiron-moon-guard]

Wait a minute, I remember you now. You’re the guy who made the LFR is too hard post a couple weeks ago.

How many times are you gonna repost the same idea, just worded a little differently?

[Brocknor-hellscream (Brocknor)]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

Early WoW worked like this because one raid tier fed into the next. But like I said, Blizzard wants to make major patches self-contained, making all previous gear obsolete.

This statement makes it seem like you don’t understand WHY they did this.

It wasn’t for MDI, or “serving the elitists.”

It was done for the casuals. Because no one wanted to put in the work to get the gear from S1 so that they could play S2. Everyone wanted “catch-up gear.”

This is just another example of Blizz giving the players EXACTLY what they asked for … and then the players COMPLAIN ABOUT IT!!!

lol

Hate to say it but, elitists aren’t the problem-- the casuals are. That makes for a good meme, but the argument is bigger than that. It’s not that simple.

[Hathranll-arthas]

He belongs in your faction, definitely not your server since it has good players.

[Kekmor-argent-dawn]

@Zoumz-zuljin

which I guess for me 10 means 10+

It does. I was reminded of this seeing SoO in Remix. How many would prog that today?

@Zoumz-zuljin

which would mean more raids.

Sure. Have a 1 boss raid (we already have these with some LFR wings) and 2-3 “normal” wings of 2-3 bosses.

@Zoumz-zuljin

I dislike fated/awakened.

Why? Fated/Awakened was an alternatie to a content drought before the next expansion. Given it’s the same cosmetics, basically, it’s pretty much optional. Just skip it if you want to wait for the new expansion. It’s better than nothing.

@Glorybraids-dalaran

I think raids should just be a 10 man thing.

This is a mixed bag with lots of unintended consequences. Vanilla went from 40 to 25 in TBC and more specs had something to bring. Combine this with the smaller sizes and you have less comp flexibility. Smaller raids combined with Blizzard’s desire for making “hard” raids means people end up chasing meta comps. You actually see this happening a ton in SoD.

So while I generally agree with the sentiment, the result doesn’t seem to be what anyone actually wants.

@Galedron-area-52

Heroic too.

So this is a separate topic but there’s really no reason for Heroic to exist. AFAICT nobody would do Heroic if it wasn’t for separate tmogs and the whole economy of selling AOTC.

@Merpish-area-52

Classic has exactly 1 raid that has fewer than 6 bosses

I didn’t say only classic. TBC had Gruul’s Lair and Magtharidon. Wrath had what? Obsidian Sanctum, Eye of Eternity and a revamped Onyxia?

[Amyrii-echo-isles]

@Hathranll-arthas

That is because you are playing Alliance.

True! Don’t think I’ve raided on horde since like wrath

[Voiron-moon-guard]

Nah, nah. You guys can keep him.

[Felsavior-zuljin (Felsavior)]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

WoW used to have 1-3 boss raids. Vanilla/Classic has Onyxia, for example. Players like this.

Huh?

Molten core? Naxxramas? Blackwing lair? Classic raids were huge with far more than 1 boss.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

It does. I was reminded of this seeing SoO in Remix. How many would prog that today?

Probably the same amount, people that do raids are a niche crowd that mostly like to do raids. Moreover in this gearing system where raiding for gear is not as required I think it’s fair to say a lot of people would still do it.

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

Why? Fated/Awakened was an alternatie to a content drought before the next expansion. Given it’s the same cosmetics, basically, it’s pretty much optional. Just skip it if you want to wait for the new expansion. It’s better than nothing.

Because I want to play wow, it being an “optional” season still means a dead season. The point is we shouldn’t settle for this or nothing. I think that’s a false choice.

[Briarkat-proudmoore]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

I 100% believe that participation data on retail and in Remix will bear this out: the vast majority of players who raid, only queue LFR. There is huge friction in forming a raid group and queueing for Normal+. I also believe that a lot of those who do Normal+ are just people buying boosts and those providing that service. I bet a lot of them only do it once for AOTC.

But doing 8+ bosses is also way more of a time commitment than most players want. This is also made worse by there being no real reason to do raids. If you want to gear up, do M+.

My theory is that only reason we keep getting 10 boss raids in retail is purely for the Race for World First. Well, that and a few people are probably nostalgiac about raid progression from years past.

WoW used to have 1-3 boss raids. Vanilla/Classic has Onyxia, for example. Players like this.

I feel like the 8-10 boss raid is dead.

The friction in Remix is going to be that 90% of the players have never seen these bosses to begin with and the remaining 10% haven’t done them in a mechanically relevant fashion in 10 years. The data from remix in this regard will be very hard to associate to anything meaningful for retail other than how many hours spent playing the game and how that corresponds to how many people participated in the remix.

As far as raid tier size. I have a real hard time accepting “less” or “limites” on a given teir other than minimums. 8 bosses is the absolute minimum for a raid teir we should expect. But the more they plug in and can do in a given window the more content we have. We likely aren’t getting a 4th raid tier in an expansion again. The awaked/fated raids seem like they are here to stay and I am wiling to bet we will get another remix in next expansion’s season 4.

Remix has turned out to be a blast for those doing them and the free for all way of getting transmog with broken OP game mechanics has really captured the attention of almost everyone in my social circles.

[Kekmor-argent-dawn]

@Zoumz-zuljin

people that do raids are a niche crowd

Thank you for conceding my point: raiding, as it exists now, is a niche activity.

@Zoumz-zuljin

Because I want to play wow, it being an “optional” season still means a dead season.

An optional season is arguably a dead season. A dead season, being a eyar long, however is by definition a dead season.

@Zoumz-zuljin

I think that’s a false choice.

That’s reasonable I’m not sure how realistic it is to expect a full major patch while working on the alpha/beta for the new expansion however.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

@Briarkat-proudmoore

The friction in Remix is going to be that 90% of the players have never seen these bosses to begin with and the remaining 10% haven’t done them in a mechanically relevant fashion in 10 years.

I got called trash for not knowing how to tank Lei Shen
Kicked people around that were overly negative and still managed to 7 man it on remix.

[Brocknor-hellscream (Brocknor)]

@Akston-area-52

You can just stop whenever you want with them all in one zone.

“You are about to enter a raid with 7 bosses dead. Do you accept?”

I also enter into evidence: Mythic raiding (which is largely the same problem).

You don’t have to “stop and travel” in any physical sense. Not only do we have portals (which existing raids have already used, but I’ll continue), but all the way back in LEGION Blizzard gave us tech to better handle this. In Halls of Valor and in the Emerald Nightmare.

In those instances, you get to certain areas and “approach” a portal. But you don’t click on it, you don’t so much change to a “loading” screen … but the screen itself just … what to call it … “graphically transitions” as the loading is done behind the scenes.

It was such a subtle thing and a much better way of handling the transition, I just assumed it was the new way to load content. But they never really used it past those two.

Regardless how you do it, it’s a small ask for a HUGE improvement to the player experience.

[Hathranll-arthas]

Something is weird about the remix raids, they’re just too easy. I would say easier than heroic dungeons.

I was in Mogu’shan vaults tanking and failing mechanics we just 1 shotted all the bosses and killed each one in like 2-3 min.

[Haugsp-sargeras]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

Thank you for conceding my point: raiding, as it exists now, is a niche activity.

Every activity in a vacuum is a niche activity.

Bait is funnier when it’s more subtle. This is just embarrassing.

[Zoumz-zuljin (Zoumz)]

It really depends of your gear/cloak levels, people early on still had some difficulty. But for sure Mogushan vault is really not that hard. I wiped for 2 hours on Galakras, there’s also some weird scaling issues which I heard they’re trying to fix.

[Hathranll-arthas]

Ah okay gotta give it some time then I guess.

[Akston-area-52]

@Brocknor-hellscream

“You are about to enter a raid with 7 bosses dead. Do you accept?”

I’ve never been asked this.

@Brocknor-hellscream

I also enter into evidence: Mythic raiding (which is largely the same problem).

This is the only time I see this problem.

@Brocknor-hellscream

Regardless how you do it, it’s a small ask for a HUGE improvement to the player experience.

For specifically mythic raiders, I guess?

I dont see how its a huge improvement otherwise. Example. Every guild I have been in just raids until a certain time. Then we stop. Next night, we pick up where we left off.

Maybe I am missing something.

[Myzrym-area-52]

@Sentenzå-sargeras

Of course it means less room for filler gimmick bosses but do people want gimmick bosses in progression raids anyways?

Not really. It’s getting old doing the same council fight in every season with new names and a fresh coat of paint.

[Amyrii-echo-isles]

@Kekmor-argent-dawn

Thank you for conceding my point: raiding, as it exists now, is a niche activity.

I don’t feel that it should be. Probably players like myself that have had bad experiences with it and don’t bother. Ive also had bad experiences with LFR though and avoid doing it