Tell me you didn’t read anything in this forum post, without telling me you didn’t read it.
many of us here just stated that we are getting solod through our defensive 100-0 in kidney shot by just the rogue. Pre obsidian scales and renewing blaze at 100% HP before kidney is legitimately not enough. There is no outplay.
You cannot CC a rogue when he goes and uses no cooldown cheap shot on your entire team and has 3 players crowd controlled in 3 globals
I think this is an issue with Devoker in general albeit these defensives are exceptionally worthless during Sub Rogue burst. I have pre Obsidian Scales+4 sec renewing blaze many classes burst and it almost feels like I didn’t press anything and just grabbed my ankles instead.
With that said I just did a 2’s game where sub rogue opened into time stop, used every defensive on air in the first 15 seconds, then proceeded to kill me through every defensive in a single cheap shot.
Sub rogue is easily the most over-tuned spec in the game currently, anyone saying otherwise is trolling.
But blizzard doesn’t care, best to not get hung up on it at this point.
So many tools and training wheels have been attached to rogue at this point that they could remove the ability to stealth from them, and just make it a temporary state when they vanish, and it would still be highly competitive in many matchups.
There’s overtuned specs like DH and War that are easier to find success on in solo queue just due to the constant zug damage, but as far as complete picture toolkit, burst, amount of failsafes built into abilities, and fallback opportunities if they use an ability poorly, Rogue this expac is one of the most coddled specs in the game.
I’d much prefer they keep the damage and control and lose all the passive healing, passive damage reduction effects, reduced cooldown effects, second vanish, shadow duel, and physical cloak. Let the truly good ones manage their defensives well with their team and use their control to live and let the bad ones get ran over like a skunk on the highway.
There’s just no way.
of course you would of course you would
cause the damage is only high during CDs, when you can CC them
and the cotrol ain’t what it used to be, with multiple classes having access to 2 stuns, and with blind/sap not being 8 seconds and easily chainable anymore.
no.
I fully welcome you to play the spec and tell me just as forgiving it is lol
I don’t see how sub is considered so difficult. In shuffle, how hard is it to blind the healer and do a pve rotation on your target? If that doesn’t kill, then smoke bomb the next one and continue pve rotation. 20 seconds later use cloak and continue pve rotation.
They’re not that difficult. It’s that their damage is too high and survivability is too strong. 2 vanishes? It’s literally training wheels compared to pre legion.
Rogue is like a 9000 action-per-second class. It’s probably by far one of the hardest classes to play well in PvP, and the rework only made Rogue even harder to play.
It is also EXTREMELY reliant on preparation and precise and communicative teamwork, which is hard to do in stuff like Solo Shuffle.
Mainly speaking from Aug perspective where Obsidian Scales even grants me a larger HP pool. Almost every class / spec is getting gibbed thru defensive cds.
I like this idea minus the control thing. Cheap Shot one of the only crowd controls that never changed in any iteration of the game.
No cooldown, and now there is more access to stealthed abilities than ever before. Subterfuge, 2 Shadow Dances, 2 Vanishes, and Shadowy Duel.
Give Cheap Shot 2 Charges, 20 second cooldown. They won’t as a hotfix, so for now, tone down damage, they are still fundamentally strong, they dont also need the best burst in game
I played sub for many years. Albeit I was a noob and a heavy drinker in those days, I still understood the fundamentals. I hated the sub change in legion and never looked back.
Cloak and vanish used to be defensives. Sometimes they were a clutch use, to land a kill. Sub now uses cloak offensively, just like how when rets are overtuned, they start using bubble offensively. That’s a sign of a care free mentality because the burst is so high. And 2 vanishes? You don’t even have to plan around or even use a gcd for premeditation anymore.
2 shadow dances is it now? It’s just never ending burst. You used to have to stay alive against frost mages and hunters for a minute until it came back up. The damage is so high, that if a healer didn’t pre burst you, nothing is surviving. I see it all the time.
Yes the rotation is about 4 more buttons, but spend a week on the dummies and in bgs and you pretty much have it down. Restealths used to be challenging. Now it’s nothing for a quick dip for a restealth.
I don’t know, I know I sound like an old fuddy duddy, but I know rogue and while the rotation is more complex than it used to be, everything else about it is just too easy
This exactly. Instant cast and undispellable crowd control is not exactly difficult to land, its guaranteed. Couple that with tanking specialization like survivability and no CD on cheap shot, you have an incredibly forgiving spec where you can make all the mistakes you want early game as long as you dont die (Its hard to die with all that defense on sub) and just win on one good setup later.
To list a few, Preservation and Augmentation Evoker are certainly harder than Sub Rogue, along with all specs of Warlock and Mage (you actually have to juke cast your dispellable crowd control, rogues crowd control is instant cast and undispellable), Arms Warrior, Feral Druid, and WW Monk are certainly harder melees (All of those 3 can die very easy whether they mismanage or have proper execution of their defensive cds).
Rogue was harder in classic when you were a glass cannon stealth fantasy based class. Now you’re practically a plate wearing warrior (with healing) in terms of defense, that has more tools than every other class (Tons of Instant CC, Tons of Defensives which work against both melee and magic now, and Smoke Bomb + Shadowy Duel which both can end games regardless of your healer’s trinket).
100%
-no class or spec with this much control should do this much dmg…
its simple as that.
just like hybrids shouldnt do as much dmg because… dun dun dar, they can heal…
i dont understand how the devs cant use simple rules like this to tune things…
if you want rogue to be able to control 3 people at a time dont give it a 1 shot burst where its main target cant play their character.
And sorry but no you dont have to play like kalvish to know this spec is broken atm.
Nahj says it should be nerfd too… like come on that guy is a god and knows its overpowered…
no one : wtf
devs : yeah 15sec of immunity to melee seems legit
Sub can only 1 shot DH, Dev, and other rogue with shadow blade. With out shadow blade, they cant 1 shot you. Its 1.5-2min big cd. If you have trinket, trinket then use Defensive or CC him right away. Dont trinket then run, they will cheap you again. They cant 1 shot DEV 100-00 in stun with obsidian scale up. That is a lie. Your complain is just like war vs mage and mage vs hunter. CC dance while shadow blade. After blade, he dont do much damage for next 80 second.
I mean if the spec is so broken and easy to play, why can’t you hit rival with ease? You’ve only gotten to challenger this entire expansion? Or actually ever?
And the fact you think we have 15 seconds of physical immunity tells me you don’t even know the class you’re talking against lol.
Maybe play the class instead of regurgitating what top players say and then come back to see if you know what you’re talking about.
If you did, you’d know how easy it is to shut down sub and that you need to stop giving them their win conditions and set ups 
Zero shot you, of all people, actually typed this right