Only if they REMOVE range increase of casters from systemlands.
Well Acrobatic Strikes was integral to the original design of Outlaw along with ranged run through finishers and ranged BTE stun.
All of that is stripped away. Outlaw literally has no identity at the moment on the TWW where the game play flows together.
Yeah, sure would be nice if Blizzard could decide what they wanted outlaw to be.
S1 - we had HO ambush builds mostly being strong, and dance was there but felt rather tacked on
S2 - was the same as S1, just less fun because it was nerfed a billion times for no reason, and more people played non-HO build
S3 - we got the rework, shifted way harder in the stealth direction, dance finally felt like it belonged in the kit, BTE major focus
TWW - no more dance, crackshot heavily nerfed so less focus on BTE, shifting more towards dispatch and less on stealth mechanics
Outlaw needs design goals. What do they want this spec to even be anymore? I’m tired of my spec design doing a 180 every single patch. Pick something and commit to it.
What do Outlaws want Outlaw to be? Not combat rogues, not multiclassers, not fabricated nonsense but actual Outlaws like yourself and bandit and a few others who chime in here.
I’ll always back you guys up as a brother of the blade and Im sure others will support you all as well. I only weigh in on Subtlety as a lifelong Subtlety rogue obviously
Reroll to warlock until they revert like gcd. Super tank, ranged, portal/gate, 4 button spec with amazing dps
As someone who liked that I could opt out of Lunge (+3 yards range) for a dps increase before, I have to hard disagree. I’ve no issues still hitting mobs with targeted attacks even with base range; at worst, I’m simply annoyed by the weapon-swings/animations of laggy conal AoEs (Cleave, Carve, Soul, Ashes, etc.) literally passing through enemies without the skill striking them.
Stack Detonation Seeds with the other melee then? Use an addon to track the cast; ping self, tank, or another melee; stack on them and move together; dodge in a patterned fashion (e.g., making a slow loop around the paved circle).
Coordinating to mitigate lost effective uptime is part of being melee. It offers more engagement for having such concerns.
I honestly hope this doesn’t exceed 6 yards. Acrobatic Strikes, Lunge, and playing Cat with 2 points in Astral Influence feel like you’re just swatting air.
That seems more a problem with balancing builds than it does an identity crisis. Why shouldn’t Outlaw be allowed to lean in on Shadowdance, avoid it entirely, focus on pistols, focus on Dispatch, or anything in between? Why does it need to, say, have less variety available to it than it had in Shadowlands?
I agree 100%.
The big reason why is that they messed with the energy of the spec and then the second Sinister Strike chance.
So at this point does BlizZard want Outlaw to pool energy like Sub does? Sepsis is being removed so there is zero chance they want Outlaw to be like Assasination so that leaves Outlaw returning to what it was originally in Legion or what Combat used to be.
But this this for RP reasons, or are you pushing content? Because when pushing content I can’t imagine ever opting out of this increase range if you’re constantly facehugging mobs.
Not generally beyond KSM, but otherwise, yes.
You would never opt out of any advantage, but that’s besides the point.
Casters are “better” (more advantaged) with no cast-times.
Melee are “better” (more advantaged) without limited range.
Neither feels more engaging for having removed those constraints, however.
I prefer playing melee without super-airslice-range for largely the same reason I prefer a more traditional/constrained ranged DPS over Beast Mastery. Especially when/as there are bankable tools already suited to the purpose of extending range and maintaining uptime, slapping on a free +60% range to everything else, too, just feels excessive or even deleterious in that it degrades those extant gameplay loops/considerations.
For my part, then, I’d rather see two-handers get a single extra yard, especially if/where tied to slower-moving specs, tighten up mob hitboxes and collision boxes to better fit their visual size, and call it a day. I don’t want to see +60% range for every melee, because I dislike the air-swatting that causes and enjoy the optimizations that go into reaching mobs even at those ranges.
For KSM this range isn’t important, beyond that you have too much downtime, especially given the amount of anti-melee mechanics on top of extremely poor visibility that close to mobs.
If I was to speculate what the Rogue dev is trying to do with Outlaw in the TWW alpha is trying to go back to a focus on more extra attacks for Outlaw which is similar to Combat’s identity from vanilla to WoD. That is why the emphasis on haste and beefing up the mastery MG damage in the very, super, super early change of the TWW alpha.
But I think more can be done with the Outlaw tree to have that focus.
They’re trying to prove me wrong, that energy isn’t an outdated paradigm, and if they make it miserable to play with low haste, they can also make it miserable to play with high haste too. Same thing going on with Monk only they will feel it less because of how their generator twisting gives extra fluidity to energy regen. Y’know, versus unlucky procs where you have to SS 3+ times to get over the 5 CP minimums.
Every other class gets extra cooldown prio attacks in a window with haste. For rogue, you will forever be CP locked and RNG rolled with what you can achieve. Like you said in DF, they added all these energy “stims” to the kit so outside of stim charges, it doesn’t matter if it feels terrible. People will just talent every energy button so they can play within windows and RB resets.
I still believe energy needs a total rework.
Rogue design is basically locked in the penalty box until you take all the energy talents which should in theory be optional but they are mostly mandatory because Rogue are balanced around the existence of so many energy talents.
There’s nothing wrong with any of that, but Blizzard has actively removed most choices from Outlaw builds because of the strange decisions they make. For example, energy and SS/ambush opportunity proc chance is so heavily nerfed now that you are forced to talent into every single energy saving or combo point generating talent possible just to do a basic rotation. This leaves almost no room to create a different build because 95% of your talents are auto picked for you.
Then we have crackshot, which I find to be incredibly fun, but the issue is that one talent point accounts for around 20-30% of your overall damage. When one talent point that is a capstone holds that much power, you have no choice but to take it and build around it. So people who used to be able to get away with non-stealth builds in earlier versions of DF outlaw no longer have that option.
This level of restrictiveness would indicate to me that the new design direction going forward for outlaw is to focus on optimizing stealth windows and using it to extend ADR, leading to a fast paced playstyle and harsh punishments if you mess this up.
Then we see changes for TWW, where Blizzard is heavily nerfing stealth builds, creating two hero trees that seem to have some anti-synergy with stealth windows, and once again, they are nerfing energy to force talent and gearing choices.
It just seems bizarre to me that we spent an entire expansion slowly building up to a larger and larger emphasis on stealth gameplay, to the point now where we can’t even avoid it if we wanted to, and now the next expansion, we’re just stripping it all away. This indicates to me a lack of focus and direction for the spec. Blizzard has no idea what they want outlaw to be, and their decisions throughout all of DF and now into TWW demonstrate this very clearly.
This goes well beyond just build tuning leading to a bit of variance, and I believe a lot of us are just very tired of moving in one direction for a patch and then being abruptly jerked into the opposite direction the next patch. Every change is a complete overhaul instead of iterating off of what we already have.
I’ve played many versions of outlaw now and frankly, I’ve enjoyed nearly every one of them. On these forums I’ve seen a lot of talk about what outlaw shouldn’t be, so I will instead list the things I think are core to what makes outlaw feel like outlaw to me personally.
As long as the above core conditions are mostly met, then I’m generally happy with the state of outlaw.
Same time there is no rogue dev, all of the devs work on us as they work on all classes so people don’t get biased and make silly crap. Energy is our way of having a cool down. Things cannot be spammy spam and expect to do series damage.
The development team is working on outlaw to be not as reliant on crackshot but that is obviously a burst style talent . They are opening up other avenues of approach while not eliminating tools like the howling banshees here keep screaming about lately.
Examining fatebound:
Additional note:
Pooling resources will always be a thing as we are a planning class. If people want spam and slam they need to go elsewhere as we will not ever be designed like that and shouldn’t.
All 3 rogues generate and use energy in different windows, tempos, conditions. No tools should be further crossed as the responsible thing which will happen, will be to tune something else down. We are created to be 100% according to what each specialization is akin to.
we are slow and methodical / tactical, they are creating us to be impactful when we choose to be. The mythic plus meter maid nonsense has people too focused on the wrong things concerning balance and performance.
The unnecessary crusade in a lot of these posts is no more than propaganda and half thought out ideas. “Just give x” isn’t grounds, sound thinking, or any rationalization for addressing things when there truly is not a problem.
Really hard to say and I appreciate an Outlaw who eat / sleep / breathes it weigh in. There is a fine line the development team is crossing all of us rogues. Outlaw will still remain the quickest regarding your notes (it does feel like that on alpha) however slowing down excessive things is a lot like how elemental shaman constantly shooting lava bursts in your eyelid for the 40000x time and expect for them to get proper tuning ala “buffs”.
I agree with your sentiment and I would say not much has changed and they did keep what you value in mind but you will have to physically see for yourself as an Outlaw.
Recent findings based on testing summarized:
Outlaw does retain their multi striking HO style pretty well and during Skull, it felt it was pretty solid (as you taught me to look out for).
finishers felt comparable to other rogues (no joke) and ambushes were definitely impactful where i could lay out 2 elites in Azj-Kahet (they are hard hitting there for comparison and are durable).
combo point generation felt there without being too frequent and it did appear for talent flexibility regardless of either hero tree selected. (Ex: HO / OPP as you taught me did feel adequate)
high sustain did feel impactful as a logger working on a tree, piece by piece. It felt like a steady axe cutting for rhythmic play while having honed aggression when the procs did happen. (Was hoping to illustrate a mental image with that).
the positive feedback loop is definitely still there but it isn’t ridiculous if that makes sense. “Lulll outlaw is brokennn and needs nerfs” as the lesser minded creatures say is not existent. RB CDR and the other rightful concerns you and other Outlaw MAINS (not part timers or multi classing hobos) brought up are addressed for sure as an observation on alpha.
Heck even main gauche in the testing gear they gave us and a mace (flail) I crafted was doing 50-60k hits at times which actually is good damage on there. Outlaw was definitely fast and didn’t seem/ feel slow paced at all. When we are dry as rogues, we are dry. They are making more classes think as well based on what I have been reading from the other classes with a bit of espionage. It is healthy for everyone to have a window where x is very effective and things taper off to an extent. I really don’t think the hard charger classes are going to understand it and will riot as usual.
Rogues must remain vigilant, continue to show up and discuss, and adapt to whatever may come.
Yeah I understand the importance of energy but sticking all the energy talents in so many different spots and then being balanced around is unprecedented in the history of Rogue. Many of us were proving right how it would turn out in Dragonflight because we discussed this in the alpha/beta of Dragonfight. So here we are again with the same problem.
The mature thing to do on BlizZard’s part would be to admit their mistake and fix the issue regarding what they did to energy for Rogues in DF and what still exists as a major problem.
It is not really fair to have multiple energy talents in the rogue general tree and the spec specific tree and then being balanced around taking all of them. That is not right and even you can admit that!
I really like this summary and love what you took the initiative to put out here.
I feel Range, Durability, Sustain all circle this same question of rogue defenses. In my mind, the defense of Sub is Stealth and the defense of Sin is rot and kite. Contrapositioning Outlaw to something of anti-stealth and anti-crawl, always on the edge of the enemy’s offense but just out of grasp, elusive yet visible, stuns, stamina, speed.
The sustain damage is an interesting component because I have no idea what you mean, but I have a feeling. I think about Vanilla Stunlocks, where you don’t kill someone in two buttons out of stealth like the sibling specs, but you are able to control the fight long enough for your superior long-term damage delivery to do its work.
This damage delivery was built on the auto attack system that composed 60% of the overall damage done. It was very different worlds (of warcraft). And it feels to be a direct damage version of an anti-dot.
Should Slice and Dice be changed to display differently on damage meters, like the damage of Rupture displays? Should Ghostly Strike echoes play this same dance? And should the auto attack of Outlaw be buffed to compose the same percentage it occupies now, reflecting these augments, enhancements, maintenance buffs as their own part of the damage breakout? This would raise their visible baseline, but lower the contribution of the reflective skills (assuming the same top end). Also, it could lower the reward for playing at a higher APM ceiling (which is a bad outcome in my book).
By no means do I think there is a “right” here, only a question of coexistence, choice, and opportunity.
That said, I am fully behind persistent activity requirements, but upper APM caps are necessary. I won’t play a game that expects a persistent APM cap over 90. APM surges to this peak are fine, and CDR increasing peak frequency rules. But how WoW standardizes major class cooldown CDR is bad visavis how Guild Wars 2 or Last Epoch manages CDR.
WoW uses hasted rotational cooldowns correctly but when it comes to major cooldowns? They seem to keep whiffing at bringing them up to this well mathed modern paradigm. If Restless Blades “increased cooldown recovery rate” instead of reduced remaining cooldowns, and added Haste as a multiple to the effect? They wouldn’t have to play this game of making energy starvation feel bad to make haste feel good…
And that crushes both APM and CDR without making the class unapproachable (as the APM surge frequency ramps up to sustained performance only with a sufficient amount of Haste on gear).
All of that wouldn’t be necessary if they smoothed the energy for all three specs.
The OG devs decided to make Relentless Strikes baseline for all three specs because it was leading to odd interactions. Plus, haste stacking the devs were hoping to happen with Cata’s energy changes did not materialize.
My position is clear as day. Don’t make the same mistake again regarding so many tiny energy talents scattered throughout the Rogue talent trees.
In the past each spec had strong energy tools baseline which is NO LONGER the case.
And I do not think having many energy talents makes for interesting choices when they are all weak when isolated and only “average” when they are all selected.
100% and compare it to a class that can simply press their buttons and the rotational cooldown gaps do the work for them, leaving no activity gaps in pressing buttons.
Why should any Rogue sit staring at their energy bar waiting for juice by comparison to a Ret Paladin smacking the flashing lights flawlessly between buttons coming back off CD?
Energy hasn’t kept up with this design philosophy shift.