Sub is known for pooling energy but Outlaw is not and Outlaw is basically no longer Outlaw/Combat if it is sitting their pooling energy.
Assassination has low APM but it isn’t designed around high APM. The problem is Outlaw is balanced around high APM and throttling energy so badly to the point it is to crawl doesn’t make sense. The spec will do no damage if it is not filling every global. Sub doesn’t need to fill every global because that is how the spec is designed.
Rogues in TWW alpha need to being doing way more damage with combo point generators and finishers if energy is going to be throttled this badly.
Outlaw/Combat always had lower damage from combo points and finishers because it filled every global because of having the best energy economy.
Sub always had done more damage through better combo point generators or finishers so the spec is balanced around not filling every global.
But if that is the design moving forward then Assassination Mutilate needs to hit hard again and Outlaw Sinister Strike damage needs to be upped.
It is as simple as that IMVHO.
The downtime in going from KSM to above doesn’t change, unless you were somehow making the healer adjust for your mistakes, at cost to party DPS…
That seems unfeasible at a 20 (now 10), and wasteful even with godly heals. So why would you not optimize your positioning as a party to improve uptime without taking avoidable damage even at a ‘mere’ 20 (now 10)?
Hard to quantify when things are increasingly dynamic (great thing) and not how they were years ago. Whether we like it or not, we have a set limit as a budget for damage.
More frequency of attacks doesn’t equate to more damage and neither does very strong attacks with lesser energy. The rogue must make choices in how to appropriately talent, situationally react in combat, and make use of what we have collectively.
While not popular, we are not a hard charger class, we do not operate as others do. Something in the grand balance will take a toll.
Core management respective to each rogue’s specialization gives way to their limits and set determined values where pooling is necessary regardless of the rogue. I would imagine, every class has that as an upper limit and must adapt and is not exclusive to us.
Inter comparisons are not grounds for correlative measures. Intra correlations between us also does not lay as solid grounds either as we are all separate and distinct.
Eg: They should and will not provide fatal flourish or relentless strikes as Assassination would then have to be dialed back elsewhere and that isn’t ideal. Vice versa can be said for us Subtlety rogues or Outlaw.
Eg: Seal Fate
I understand and acknowledge your points however, hard charger classes operate their way and we work our way and blurring the lines instead of small talents to augment conditionals and alleviate “pain points” is what that would ultimately do in the end.
Mutilate does pull its weight through vicious venoms 70% 2/2, shiv 20%, and talents such as lethal dose further amping it.
Eg: alpha testing
160k (combined )up to 220k in Azj-kahet templated character 515 ilvl gear on ambushes.
Mutilate provided
+- 40-50k physical and usually another 60k in higher crits as poison depending on conditions met (LD , shiv et al.)
Sinister strikes
Regardless of all the awful changes they’ve already made Outlaw is absolutely screwed without the extra range on blade flurry.
There’s also the delusionals that think haste will fix the problem but the alpha premade character is literally sitting at 40% from the gear it gives you and even going Vigor / Ho I’ve already had multiple times already while questing that I’m sitting at literally 0 energy pressing Sinister Strike to 7 cp with zero procs. People don’t understand how impactful even an extra 5% added onto Opportunity is and how much it changes the spec even being playable at a basic level. +1 Ambush cp, Audacity and Ho are literally the only small patch of duct tape left that’s even still holding the spec together.
Additionally, we are balanced around team play. That isn’t a talent issue, it is “probably” (and i say that loosely as to not be misquoted or misunderstood). We aren’t tuned to “solo” the heck out of people but our cds are still impactful.
Other classes gained more things to stop us … while it stinks, we have to adapt and desync cds from theirs and pick our shots with this current iteration of pvp.
Given the 15% DR while cc’d metagem ( a choice between precognition and that) and the developers focus on battleground style team fighting , for TWW, it is likely we won’t be harassed as bad about damage when it will be a diablo 4 romper room instead.
We rogues exist to snuff our the candles that people’s lives are in single target. Not meter maid style damage, it is likely that we will have some reasonable tuning to accomplish that without being “ecks dee one shot tee hee” as people immaturely desire.
More is to be seen and it will unravel itself in time in the next approaching months as launch is imminent. I would ask that fellow rogues remain vigilant, enthusiastic, and adapt accordingly.
Fatebound does add a stock 5% (ss example brought up) for outlaw and for assassination through psn application with its own hooks.
deal fate
That does add an additional cb pt when ss hits in addition to preexisting effects. (Seal fate but for outlaw is what I would say that is) it was common to load up into 5 cb pts rather easily on alpha and skull felt like a jack hammer when that did get rolling and maintained the aggressive and focused duality that Outlaw rogues suggest is the standard.
naturally as conditions above are met, HO ambush benefited from those so 4 cb pts are generated not including broadside 1 additional.
I am no outlaw but I tested with different enemies and conditions based on what was suggested by Outlaw friends and what to look for. I have also been requesting for more main rogue’s presence on alpha so that Outlaws and Assassins may weigh in with their respective experienced viewpoints. (Beta which is soon, will at least have more rogue mains on it as everyone has beta access).
Alacrity as a talent is also going to feel like a forced choice.
I think there is a better way forward but that is my opinion.
Yeah I just mean that even with the 5% from Fatebound which we’re entirely forced into because of that we’re still 5% below where we’re even at on retail with the tier set bonus, which hilariously enough only exists because the devs were too lazy to give us a real tier set bonus and just nerfed Opportunity instead of giving us a real 2p and now we’re paying for it just like I figured we would. Sadly the most likely scenario is our dev not understanding why that % chance matters and instead of fixing SS proc chance they would just remove that hero talent to say “hey look you can play trickster now!”.
So basically we’re getting deleted by nerfs, no tier set compensation, still target capped, Acro deleted so we can’t even hit 8 targets anyways, Killing Spree is still a dead talent, GSW is still dead, Ghostly as a capstone kills it, KIR is completely dead, Adrenaline Rush gutted by forcing us into 25% Haste which has no value other than unnerfing AR meaning we lose Crit / Vers, Mastery is still a dead stat, and even with the massive nerfs that had no logical reason behind them you’re still have to take Crackshot because there’s no other way to get enough CDR to keep Adrenaline Rush rolling and the current state of Outlaw is unplayable without Rush active.
We’re already the least played class and it’s just going to drop off even further when casters remain perma meta in keys and the only people that are going to be left are the masochists coping that Atrophic Poison is going to keep them their raid spot. Just wait until people finally realize that AP doesn’t even work on like 80% of boss abilities.
It’s hard to have any faith at all that anything is going to change when based on MoP remix we’re 3-4 months away from the expansion launching and we quite literally either need a full rework or a full revert to DF S1. The bias at Blizzard is extremely obviously when Mages / Priests / Warlocks get reworks after reworks after reworks and we’re just left to rot.
It’s actually wild to play any other class in the game on the Alpha because you feel like an actual class and then go touch Outlaw which still has game crippling bugs with Subterfuge after more than a year and it feels like you’re literally playing the first implantation of it ever added to the video game in a pre alpha state. WW is a great example; I don’t know who cooked up what they did with WW but they need to be put on Rogue and replace our guy because they actually understood what they needed to do.
Yeah I mean Alacrity is given regardless as long as Deeper Stratagem is locked behind it anyways so you’ll never not take it.
Its hard man and I hear you. We are always going to be
There is no single person who develops us, the team as a whole has checks and balances and our damage budget has constraints whether we agree or not. (Other classes likely do as well) . Instead of getting ticked about things, I am trying to be mature about things and look for opportunities to make my style and the things I care about shine. They created multiple playstyles for each of our specs, they have taken feedback and attempted to make something for everyone through various talenting (yes some talents are undertuned and not as permeable).
Other classes are slowly creeping up on more tools which is cool but yeah…
Ex: double stormbolt (mountain thane), shockwave serving as an upgraded duration rivaling kidney shot (which is fine but the rogue hate has gotta stop).
we aren’t going to arms warrior people down and wind walker is a different animal on its own with its own constraints and budgets. (Wind walkers did trade some stuff from what im reading although I don’t speak their language).
At some point rogue kind will be tuned up to thin the herd out a bit and the inevitable cycle will continue when we are “too effective” as the pve’ing classes like to rage about while they tab target people.
I dunno what the future holds but we make due as rogues and stick together till the very end.
Yeah, it’s very concerning that we’re probably already approaching TWW beta and we still have not received compensation for losing the S3/4 tier set. This spec is unplayable without a high enough opportunity proc chance. Sinister strike spam with no procs is literally healer levels of dps, and you’re not spending CPs and therefore getting no CDR, so it hurts your damage both in the moment and throughout the entire encounter.
Base opportunity proc chance should never have been touched. This is exactly why borrowed power (tier sets) shouldn’t be used to make a spec function. Who knows how long it will take a dev to figure this out and fix it. Energy economy is also a total joke. It’s crazy to me that I can take 9 energy/CP generation talents between my class and spec tree and I still get energy starved outside of ADR. And somehow we’re nerfing energy regen in TWW again.
All these changes are highly concerning.
The developers are uninterested or just not creative enough to work on rogues, look at the kind of things that mages and death knights are getting it’s disgusting. The above poster is correct we should not have to rely on a set bonus to feel functional or smooth gameplay.
So one of the cool aspects aka Acrobatics introduced is being deleted meanwhile harry potters are gaining more teleports and instant cast in TWW. Hunters will retain their massive range all the way from North Pole to do DPS.
Am I missing something?
I agree! Nerf the pampered class!
Acro also increases blade flurry’s range too, you literally cannot go without if you’re actually serious about your DPS.
Hopefully they increase the range of Blade Flurry, otherwise that’s going to be a massive hit to Outlaws viability in M+
The change is kind of a weird one though. They are essentially creating a scenario where the rich get richer. The strongest melee spec in the game right now is Ret… the melee spec least impacted by range issues.
Season 1 of War Within is going to be all Casters and the only melee DPS that will be meta is Ret and maybe Unholy… particularly given the current hero trees.
BF range has been increased, but that doesn’t matter. They’ve killed off Outlaw.
The only thing left of “Outlaw” is RTB which is the worst aspect of Outlaw. Might as well go back to Combat at this point.
A Ret paladin chiding other melee in a thread about melee range restrictions is just a straight troll post. 90% of your kit is 15+ yards