You’re right. Our expectations need to be recalibrated.
Seeing changes post vanilla bleed through into the demo were unsettling to say the least.
Fast health/mana regen was from wotlk and made drinking/eating not required anymore. And posters saying they loved the demo and it was exactly as they remembered.
Fast health/mana regen was from wotlk and made drinking/eating not required anymore. And posters saying they loved the demo and it was exactly as they remembered.
11/09/2018 07:51 AMPosted by StiffhornThis was pointed out months ago. When we lost the first three purists to congestive heart failure.
Think it was a flying thread for the first one. The second went down over the first guild bank thread.
The third went down when it was explained that modern infrastructure, hardware, player knowledge, addons, and resources would make the experience not the same as 2004.
Been a lot of mini strokes since then and a lot of panic attacks.
2019 classic is not 2004 Vanilla. It was never going to be.
You don't need to be a developer to see that.
You're a numbers person. Way too many variables to deliver that exact experience. Impossible actually. We can hope for close though.
You already knew this.
Even if it was 1:1 starting with patch 1.0 it would still be different.
The players have changed. No matter what any of these grumpy old geezers here say.
Figures don't lie and liars figure. Go figure. Lol.
Wow thank you very much for that response it was really insightful. For the record I know it's not '04 vanilla. I'm ready to use the nostalgic environment of vanilla to create new memories and a new experience of vanilla today, not recreate my past.
11/09/2018 07:51 AMPosted by StiffhornThe third went down when it was explained that modern infrastructure, hardware, player knowledge, addons, and resources would make the experience not the same as 2004.
That was just... Preaching to my heart, I harp this to my classic friends all the time. I fully expect a much easier version of vanilla because of addons, and player knowledge ALONE, not even taking into account exterior resources like quest data, bis list, etc. Thottbot will make their resurgence but they won't touch wowhead.
Imo, wowhead will either adapt with thottbot integration (highly unlikely), or create their own vanilla database. (havent done any research on this)
11/09/2018 07:57 AMPosted by TricksyhyenaYou’re right. Our expectations need to be recalibrated.
Again, not a call to action, but thats what has been happening to me and I'm wondering why it hasn't happened to many others...
11/09/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Spookyspud11/09/2018 07:57 AMPosted by TricksyhyenaYou’re right. Our expectations need to be recalibrated.
Again, not a call to action, but thats what has been happening to me and I'm wondering why it hasn't happened to many others...
No, I'm not lowering my expectations.
if pservers can do it (excluding raids) then Blizz should have no problems doing it because they have the source code.
Everyone is saying pservers are off big time and just guess numbers.
Well I've been playing on Northdale. I've looked up quests..rewards/exp and that's exactly what I got. Plenty of archives out there with the numbers.
Raids I can understand because so few did them back then so there's not much to go on. But normal leveling and questing...not an issue.
11/09/2018 08:02 AMPosted by BrockthornAnd posters saying they loved the demo and it was exactly as they remembered.
See, that's the thing. I never expected it to be "exactly as I remembered" I was quite happy with the demo, however.
11/09/2018 08:10 AMPosted by Brockthorn11/09/2018 08:03 AMPosted by Spookyspud...
Again, not a call to action, but thats what has been happening to me and I'm wondering why it hasn't happened to many others...
No, I'm not lowering my expectations.
if pservers can do it (excluding raids) then Blizz should have no problems doing it because they have the source code.
Everyone is saying pservers are off big time and just guess numbers.
Well I've been playing on Northdale. I've looked up quests..rewards/exp and that's exactly what I got. Plenty of archives out there with the numbers.
Raids I can understand because so few did them back then so there's not much to go on. But normal leveling and questing...not an issue.
Honestly I think when people talk about "numbers" being off on private servers, they refer to the fact that certain classes perform perceptively better (like ret pallys) than they did in vanilla when it was live. So the discrepancy that comes from that is: has player knowledge gone up and the game evolved or are the numbers off?
I cannot provide that answer to you because I do not have the technical knowledge of game design and how those "numbers" get input to create, for example, a ret pallys proc rate of his SoC, things like that.
11/09/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Fallanaa11/09/2018 08:02 AMPosted by BrockthornAnd posters saying they loved the demo and it was exactly as they remembered.
See, that's the thing. I never expected it to be "exactly as I remembered" I was quite happy with the demo, however.
haha that just makes me laugh... its literally completely different, I guess they could be speaking to the devs accuracy of recreating the zone? I also am still enjoying it as well.
11/09/2018 07:08 AMPosted by SpookyspudI feel like noone talks about the fact that they are running the 1.12 data over top of the 7.3.5 engine.
It is because it is something not everyone can fully grasp or that they can simplify down into a small enough statement that they can use to explain to others effectively.
And yes - It does change EVERYTHING.
How the game calculates out your health, hit chance, dodge, and damage are all managed by that core foundation code. What Blizzard is attempting to do is change what is apparent so that they don't have to change everything that isn't.
11/09/2018 08:23 AMPosted by Äger11/09/2018 07:08 AMPosted by SpookyspudI feel like noone talks about the fact that they are running the 1.12 data over top of the 7.3.5 engine.
It is because it is something not everyone can fully grasp or that they can simplify down into a small enough statement that they can use to explain to others effectively.
And yes - It does change EVERYTHING.
How the game calculates out your health, hit chance, dodge, and damage are all managed by that core foundation code. What Blizzard is attempting to do is change what is apparent so that they don't have to change everything that isn't.
So what you're saying is the changes will mostly be internal, and they're doing their best to trace the exterior image as close to vanilla as possible?
This is what I made the post about, how do you feel about that personally? What kind of implications does that have for class balancing and other systems? Is it likely we will see certain classes and specs performing differently as a result of the unapparent changes? It seems like the people that fully grasp the technicality behind this design don't really care, they must not be "no changes" enthusiasts.
Noone cares cause the game is 14 years dead and noone except diehard private server people are going to even notice.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
11/09/2018 08:17 AMPosted by Spookyspud
Honestly I think when people talk about "numbers" being off on private servers, they refer to the fact that certain classes perform perceptively better (like ret pallys) than they did in vanilla when it was live. So the discrepancy that comes from that is: has player knowledge gone up and the game evolved or are the numbers off?
I cannot provide that answer to you because I do not have the technical knowledge of game design and how those "numbers" get input to create, for example, a ret pallys proc rate of his SoC, things like that.
I didn't comment on that because I don't know those types of numbers either.
But when you play a game the second time you know a lot more.
I definitely didn't die as much. I knew what kind of gear I needed as a hunter.
I already knew the skills from having played a hunter for 14 years and was kiting mobs much earlier.
When I got cheetah (level 20 ?) I was able to kite stitches to STV.
Never would have been able to do that in vanilla as a noob.
From personal experience I played vanilla much better the 2nd time round.
Noone cares cause the game is 14 years dead and noone except diehard private server people are going to even notice.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
And I'm starting to think that's how Blizzard sees it as well.
You won't notice if any qol changes from other expansions bleed through..you'll probably like them.
11/09/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Lagspike
I guess I just want to know, is it really that impossible to work forward?
Yes. Yes it is.
Take blizzards word for it. They are better at this than you. Or me. Or anyone in this forum.
Seconded. I'm not thrilled about it either, but I don't doubt it at all. This was the only feasible way Classic was going to happen. Unfortunately it's also the way that'll be harder to make authentic. Having to work backward means retail changes will likely be missed and left in, possibly even come launch time.
I really hope Blizzard is still working with one or more parties from the private server community to help them minimize the retail stuff that slips through.
11/09/2018 08:49 AMPosted by BrockthornNoone cares cause the game is 14 years dead and noone except diehard private server people are going to even notice.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
And I'm starting to think that's how Blizzard sees it as well.
You won't notice if any qol changes from other expansions bleed through..you'll probably like them.
When we said that nochangers were a tiny minority we meant it, they will just go back to private servers where they can be big fishes in tiny ponds.
And as far as what they've said will remain from retail so far, loot trading is just automation of what GMs used to have to do when drops were mis-allocated. It'll be functionally no different.
Sharding... I can only hope they mean it when they say they understand Classic players don't want it. It'd better happen only the first month and only in the starter zones.
Sharding... I can only hope they mean it when they say they understand Classic players don't want it. It'd better happen only the first month and only in the starter zones.
11/09/2018 08:41 AMPosted by ThepyroamosNoone cares cause the game is 14 years dead and noone except diehard private server people are going to even notice.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
That is pretty much where I sit.
I didn't want the 1.12 client back...
I wanted the old world, the old quests, the old talents, the old dungeons, old raids, old professions, old items, etc... I wasn't super worried about the details or the engine.
The Vanilla world on the modern engine is pretty much exactly what I wanted.
It looks to be exactly what they are delivering, and I'm stoked.
11/09/2018 07:19 AMPosted by Lagspike...
Yes. Yes it is.
Take blizzards word for it. They are better at this than you. Or me. Or anyone in this forum.
Seconded. I'm not thrilled about it either, but I don't doubt it at all. This was the only feasible way Classic was going to happen. Unfortunately it's also the way that'll be harder to make authentic. Having to work backward means retail changes will likely be missed and left in, possibly even come launch time.
I really hope Blizzard is still working with one or more parties from the private server community to help them minimize the retail stuff that slips through.
They said at Blizzcon that no Nost people worked on it.
Best hope is an early beta where players dig in and really try to test it.
From demo feedback threads it was pretty easy to trace back the bleed through changes to expansions and some to specific patches.
I don't think its impossible to work up it just very time consuming and could actually cause more bugs and issues then working backwards. Alos I believe because of certain thing it would require them to alter the code and data in 1.12 to fit into certain systems where backwards is just adding to an existing. I don't know the small in and out I do however know its easier and lot less issues going the way they are going right now.
11/09/2018 08:54 AMPosted by Fallanaa11/09/2018 08:41 AMPosted by ThepyroamosNoone cares cause the game is 14 years dead and noone except diehard private server people are going to even notice.
Really, all most of us want is a playable MMO that isn't complete garbage. It's been over a decade since we had one.
That is pretty much where I sit.
I didn't want the 1.12 client back...
I wanted the old world, the old quests, the old talents, the old dungeons, old raids, old professions, old items, etc... I wasn't super worried about the details or the engine.
The Vanilla world on the modern engine is pretty much exactly what I wanted.
It looks to be exactly what they are delivering, and I'm stoked.
So you really didn't want an authentic vanilla experience ?
You wanted a better wow than wow ?
Details should be very important IMHO.