I came across a two-year old thread on reddit, discussing the Nightborne and their choice to join the Alliance, which yielded a tonne of some very witty and accurate responses - specifically these posts:
and a response to it:
Bonus - Some great commentary on Liadrin too:
Emphasis all mine. (Whole thread is here - https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/7ugkq2/why_the_nightborne_joining_the_horde_makes/)
Anyway, I basically agree with these specific posts. They make some very salient points in the form of outlining similarities between the overall BE/NB outlooks of self-preservation, self-centeredness/selfishness, attraction/dependence on power sources, pursuit of the Arcane, and isolationism.
I am definitely in the âNightborne (like the Blood Elves before them) truly fit in the Hordeâ camp. These forums were quite divided years ago when this was revealed - How do we feel about it now?
My personal view is that the NB are more akin to their High Elven - now BE - cousins, and not the kaldorei who kept vigil over Kalimdor for 10k years, as the above discourse notes.
Controversial but I feel that the posters who disagree with the direction Blizzard has taken regarding the NB is largely due to the aesthetics of the matter. Night elf fans feel like their favourite raceâs grand heritage has been given over to the Horde. The sting is made worse when that heritage in-game, Suramar, has been presented so beautifully, totally eclipsing anything the in-game kaldorei have, perhaps even ZinâAszhari. IMO the sell of Suramar/NB to the Horde would have been much more palatable if the playable kaldorei got something, anything in return. (The irony being that not only did we not get a bone, we actually massively lost. Hereâs hoping that we see an appropriate, awesome revamped home sometime soon. I always wished Teldrassil was like GW2âs Sylvari Grove).
I actually really liked the whole political aspect of the NB in legion. With both sides having a vested interest in gaining the NB, it was surprisingly unique to see that Tyrande felt know need to actually build a positive rapport. Now obviously she had her reasons, but it was refreshing seeing her not act perfectly and basically take every chance to call Thalyssra out on all of the NBâs faults.
Added to that, itâs extremely easy to see the NB fitting into the Alliance, which is obviously why there was so much drama about it when they went horde. It really does feel to me that if any other alliance rep was there, the NB would have sided with the Alliance. Feels like the biggest political mistake the Alliance has made.
But now that the dust has settled, I really like the NB in the horde. Seeing them actively upgrade several magical aspects in the Horde, notably the portals, as well as giving a very strong ally to the BEs. They feel very prominent in BFA which has been great, and I hope to see more, blizz hasnât missed an opportunity to include them where ever they generally should be. My only real complaint is that we havenât met any new faces, Iâd love to see a NB surface who has taken to the ânewâ world like a fish to water, and be a tool to show that the NB have likely lost a vast understanding of other lands, but their unique solutions to what wouldnât even be problems to any other race.
What matters most to me is that the playable Nightborne models are hideous, to the point where I wish they had gotten Druids as a class, as being able to shapeshift out of their appearance would have been the only way I could end up playing one.
The only thing I take issue with is the interpretation of Liadrin as a wheeling and dealing schemer, outright lying to Thalyssra to achieve some shady political objective. Thatâs really not who the character is. Sheâs blunt, outspoken, and self-righteous, but sheâs always been honest in her intentions.
She might be wrong, but she almost certainly thinks sheâs right.
I agree with this. On a personal level it kind of sucked, because I had loved the Suramar questline and after spending all that time with Thalyssra, Valtrois and Oculeth, seeing them and Suramar go join the Horde felt pretty bad.
On a larger scale though, it did annoy me that this big part of the night elvesâ history/story was no longer âtheirsâ, for lack of a better word. All the glory and majesty of the ancient kaldorei empire, represented perfectly by Suramar, was now Horde. Meanwhile, the night elvesâ present was also taken away by means of a horrific genocide. Both of those things put together was a bit much for me as a night elf fan.
On a completely different note, one other thing that got to me was that the Horde are now undoubtedly the more arcane-proficient faction. Which just rankles my a$$, because historically the arcane was something the Alliance excelled in, while the Horde excelled in, at first, fel and then shaman magic after Thrallâs reformation. Now though, by way of Silvermoon and Suramar, they lay claim to two of the three arcane focused civilizations on Azeroth. The third, Dalaran, is neutral. So the Alliance is left with nothing, other than local mages which almost every faction under the sun has. It seems for the past decade the Alliance is constantly losing things, only to win the moral victory in the end. Personally, Iâd chose a glorious magical city over Anduin feeling happy.
The models are really bad. Out of all the Allied Races, they seem the most unfinished/rushed/lacking and I am not sure why. I rolled a mage but I just canât seem to have any desire to level him due to the shoddy aesthetics of the playable chars.
There is a bit of this played to (appropriately) comedic effect at Xibala in Zuldazar. Would definitely pay to see more of it. Very charming.
Could her skewed view of history not just be chalked up to this very in-character arrogance/self-righteousness though?
I mean, I am always hesitant regarding Blizzâ treatment of Liadrin. Havent played my pally through Legion content, but I read somewhere that sheâs super neutral in the Order Hall stuff. But then Blizzard goes and makes her gigantically pro-Horde in BFA. So which is the version of the character?
I think it would have been great if Blizzard did some phasing for characters who had done all the relevant questlines to have the Black Rook Keep area, the Wardens and Farondisâ Court in Azsuna to officially align with the Darnassian Elves. I mean, the Wardens at the very least, answer to Darnassus (well, Malf), donât they?
But I guess development of a race in that direction is not the story they want to tell regarding the Night Elves.
The heritage of Suramar is not Night Elf heritage. Itâs Highborne or Quelâdorei as the term used to be. Suramar is a city that reeks of the Arcane as far as Night Elf sensibilities go. Thereâs nothing natural about itâs architecture. Itâs certainly not Kalâdorei.
I mean I totally agree. But I think for many NE players, myself included, it was in many ways an important piece to the raceâs history and background.
Thereâs also the cause of the Alliance tends to suppress the cultures of other races that donât fit with the traditional Eastern Kingdom Alliance. Thalryssa points this out in the Nightborne player introduction. The alliance plays lip-service to honoring traditions, but only races from the Eastern Kingdoms.
Even if its unintentional, Blizzard tends to favor Blue and Gold and similar on aesthetics, even on stuff that should be racial, to the point that it could be interpreted as ethnocentrism. Any counter tends to amount no more than a few words from a dev tweet or if weâre lucky, a sentence in a book. But certainly no game resources.
I donât get how people think that Suramar was a part of (playable) night elf history. It really isnât apart from the newcomers in Cata, thereâs probably only a handful of night elves who even set foot in Suramar (Tyrande, Shandris and likely Maiev to name a few). Honestly, thatâs not even a good point, but itâs a strike nonetheless. The more pressing issue is that Darnassian night elves literally just lived in their huts outside of all the major cities - they had literally nothing to do with Suramar; they didnât care for magic, and Suramar was like an epicentre for magic. Sure, there was a large priesthood there as well, but they all either died or are now nightborne.
Suramar is firmly entrenched in the WotA trilogy and part of kaldorei history, as are Aszhara, the Highborne, etc in spite of whatever aspersions you cast on the dwellings of NE vis a vis having Malfurion, Tyrande, Illidan, Cenarius etc as protagonists/central characters in both NE history as well as playable NE history (in all the games).
What Suramar has become now is definitely its own thing but to pretend as if they are totally divorced is weird and wrong. Iâd argue that even events in Frozen Throne (Maiev discovering its ruins) has firm ties to NE happenings.
Youâre as much as Night Elf as I am as much a troll. Really, your character should say âNightborne Night Elfâ given that mine says âZandalari Trollâ.
So essentially, it two sides acting upon external stimuli, past relations, and old biases to the end result of the Nightborne joining the Horde. Though, Iâve never been fond of the sort of NE-convenient way people tend to look at this decision.
Yes, the NEs and Tyrande had reasons to be mistrustful of the Nightborne. Good reasons from their perspective. But the NEs relationship with the âHighborne Civilizationâ goes far beyond that, in that they have a tangible contempt for the very civilization and culture the NBs are living relics of. Tyrande may have been the most obvious sign of this, but as the political and religious authority within her people ⊠she is very symbolic of how many NEs likely perceive these NBs. Which is why Tyrande makes it very apparent that the NEs are in Surumar to fight the Legion; and the NBs are merely a means to do so.
On the flip side, people focus far too much on Liadrinâs recruitment scenario dialogue, and donât focus enough on her actual Surumar dialogue. Her reasons for wanting to openly support the people of Surumar came from a place of understanding the pain that comes from extreme mana-withdrawal; as well as the despair that comes from having a beloved leader betray your people to the Forces of the Fel. On top of this, we have Rommath in Surumar who is just nerdgasming at the prospect of getting to talk Arcane shop with a living relic of the very civilization his own designed themselves to emulate.
Long of the short of it:
The BEs had reasons, understandable reasons, to want to build a relationship with their Nightborne âcousinsâ ⊠and pursued such.
The NEs had reasons, understandable reasons, to be hesitant or outright against building a relationship with their Nightborne âsiblingsâ ⊠and thus did not.
The NBs had reasons, understandable reasons, to join their BE âcousinsâ who they have a ton in common with culturally; and who wanted to build a relationship with them. Rather than their NE âsiblingsâ who actually do perceive the NBs culture with contempt; and did not.
I donât see them going around Kalimdor suppressing Night Elf culture. They did after all allow the Night Elves to majorly remake an entire quadrant of Stormwind. Or were you not around when the Park was a major RP hub back in the day?
Actually the real Highborne became Naga with Azshara. Or their descendants of another group became High/Blood/Void/Vamprire Elves. The Highborne with the Night Elves were the survivors of a degenerate group within Eldreâ Thelas or as itâs known today, Dire Maul who would have been executed on sight if they had appeared to Night Elf view at an earlier time.
Yeah, this really, really sucks. I love the Nightborne. Suramar is my favorite zone in the game in both appearance and story, and the Nightborne themselves are tied with arakkoa for my favorite race. But I absolutely cannot play them. Iâve tried multiple times, but their player models - both genders - are just awful.
To those saying Suramar had nothing to do with playable Night Elven characters, you are factually wrong. Thereâs just no other way of putting it.
The Highbourne rejoined Kaldorei society in Cataclysm, and have been a part of them since. Lower and Higher classes of the ancient empire are now a part of the current Darnassian society. I get that Liadrin was more emotionally supportive to the Nightbourne, but the Alliance has every right to be annoyed at spending resources helping them, while being fed the tripe of returning to the world as protectors not destroyers, only to have them team up with the genocidal banshee warchief.
Itâs just another example of Blizzard shoehorning things for the sake of gameplay or faction balance reasons, and it all started with Blizzard making the Blood Elves Horde from the beginning. If they had the intention of bringing Suramar to the Horde, Alliance should have been given a different questline. Itâs that simple.
ItâŠwas a night elf city. In the Kaldorei Empire. Tyrande was born and raised there. The Stormrage twins were born basically in the suburbs and then lived in Suramar. And where do you get the idea that only the Highborne practiced magic? The whole civilization did. Outside of the Highborne elite, the rest of the kaldorei balanced it with their affinity for nature. They all loved it like they all loved Azshara, the only difference is they didnât abandon their other beliefs like the Highborne did.
The post-Sundering societal shift hadnât happened yet. In fact, in the WotA trilogy, it describes how Zin-Azshari itself was mostly reduced to rubble by the demons, with only the Highborne-specific areas of the city being spared. So even the cities were mostly populated by non-Highborne night elves.
It should also be noted that the Shenâdralar were only accepted back into NE civilization when they were because according to Malf âThey were humbled enoughâ. Which, effectively is the equivalent of saying that they were so broken and desperate they would have agreed to anything to be allowed in. And Maiev tried to murder them all anyway.
While the Shenâdrelar are allowed some level of Arcane Practice, it is very unlikely that anything culturally âHighborneâ beyond that mechanical magic use will survive in such an environment. It will be weeded out of them over time.