...Ngl I kind of want the MoP-BfA style talent trees back. This is all too much

Dragonflight’s Talent trees are fun… but it’s getting to be too much now. And with Hero talents on the way, I’m dreading the impossibility of actually balancing all of that.

I think there’s something special about a talent tree that forces you to choose out of several options. It means players can choose between actives or passives, or choose between a short aoe stun or a longer single target stun. But now you can just choose it all. And it’s chaos.

In mythic+ it’s chaos. In PvP it’s an utter sh*tshow (see: “micro cc’ing”). I have no idea if this is an unpopular opinion or not but I really think the WoW class designers need to consolidate their ideas and trim the fat quite a bit. I would rather 10 abilities that have a lot of depth, use cases, and flexible customizability, than 30 abilities that all have their unique uses. We only have so many fingers guys.

With this immense bloat, class identity seems to be almost gone entirely. Remember when Arms warriors’ “thing” was Mortal Strike/Grievous wounds? Now like half the classes and specs have them if not more. And it’s like that for so many classes and abilities now.

Like what’s next after The War Within? MORE Hero talents? Another set of talents on top of them called “Heroic Talents”?! “Heroic-er Talents”??? The whole thing just feels like a house of cards, ready to crash and fall at a moment’s notice as class design goes from being bloated to completely over-designed.

And for those who interpret this as some kind of request for less choice, you couldn’t be more incorrect. The irony is that with having way, way too much choice, the variability (and balance issues) becomes so overwhelming that the only “good” option becomes whatever is simmed and min-maxed as the best, with small flexibility. Yes, simming has been an ever-present plague in this game for years, but the napkin math speaks for itself. What is more likely to be min-maxed into oblivion: The DF talent tree with 60+ variable points? Or the MoP tree with only 7 options? The former has so much wild variability to it, that many players will unknowingly “nerf” themselves by picking what they like instead of what has been calculated to optimization. The latter has only 21 choices, and restricts you to 7 at a time, which means that in a worst-case scenario for min-maxing, you’re likely only “incorrect” on a couple of your talent picks, and half of those picks are situational anyways, which means by design you’re supposed to be able to switch them at a moment’s notice to accommodate your current gameplay. But what this means is that currently, to play what you enjoy, often means to get left out of mythic+ groups, or get rekt in PvP. Everyone brushes this truth off until they spend 6 hours running circles in expansion capital city unable to find groups. And heck, it even means you’ll have a harder time with solo content.

In conclusion; we are experiencing an over-inflation of player power via talents. Just like the power of a single dollar, if there’s more in circulation, the singular unit is worth less; talents are no different in this context. Many players have their grievances with MoP’s talent tree. But it’s easy to forget that that expansion is also heralded as the peak of PvP, introduced challenge modes (which would eventually become mythic+), and had great raiding. Players needed to make meaningful choices with their limited 6-7 talent tiers, and couldn’t just buy one of everything from the candy store like you can now. You used to have to choose the type of CC or defensive cooldown you wanted. Or choose between making your spec’s signature ability stronger, or trading that extra power for completely new ability instead. But now you can pick all of the CC options. You can pick all of the defensives, you can pick the max level talents that make your ultimate more powerful while also choosing 3 abilities that all do the exact same thing but in slightly different ways (looking at you Survival Hunter with your 3 charges (flanking strike, harpoon, coordinated assault)).

IMO, better design would be making one ability with 3 talent options to modify it to your liking, like what Heroes of the Storm’s talents often do. And I genuinely believe having that kind of agency would enrich everyone’s gameplay. The barrier for entry would be vastly lower. The skill ceiling would remain the same. Skill would be measured not by how many automated addons you have to play your flight simulator game for you, but instead what you do with your limited but purposefully chosen skillset. One can dream right?

With that said though, I think that something like Class Skins would qualm a lot of wants and needs for player fantasy. The irony is that Blizzard seem to think we want more powers and abilities to express ourselves- but in reality, I’d wager that the above-proposed simplified talent system, paired with well-crafted class skins would adequately satiate many players’ desires.

Just my two cents

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Is it the buttons or the complexity?

While I’m personally happy, I know that you’re not alone in your opinion. Good luck :crossed_fingers:

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boooooooo get this man off the stage

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I was watching some gameplay from WoD and Legion and it sorta hit me how much more simple it was. You don’t really notice until you look back

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At the end of the day the choices arent all that interesting but imo there is a middle ground between these and the old style.

It kinda has to be solved on a spec by spec basis tho which i imagine is a lot of work.

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After playing Classic it brought back memories of why there are class trainers around. Use to be you would go to them every so often to pick up your new tallents.

That is the system I wish they would bring back. It gave you more of a feeling that when you took on a class you belonged to a fellowship of some sort.

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I saw BfA in passing cause my friend used to play it a lot. It did seem simpler.

I started and SL and DF has been my longest expansion so far so I’m used to this new system.

However for say older folk or people with hand issues I don’t see a problem in making a few more passive talents in place of some on use. Some buttons just feel crappy to pressing like WTS for Monks.

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Less customization=bad
More customization=good

Talent trees never should have been taken away to begin with.

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if it’s too much for you, just follow what everyone else that plays your class is doing.

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Ehh… Idk… When your talent tree starts to look like the fusion dance between the final fantasy x sphere grid and the path of exile talent page and every talent has more text than a yugioh card you’ve probably gone beyond the pale for most people lol.

Edit: Wow isnt there yet, but it could go that way eventually. Fear that it was trending too far one way led to the simplification. Fear that things were trending too simplistic brought the trees back. And of course all of the changes were met with screaming, anguish, and gnashing of teeth. Perfectly balanced, as all things should be.

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The opinion you hold is not shared by the majority.

Talent revamp was one of the best things Blizzard has done in a long time.

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Would be cool to have the old system with the hero talents on top. But a lot more hero archetypes.

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I should rephrase a little. I really like these talents. But with hero talents on the way, and thinking into Warcraft Midnight and whatever they add? Like where’s the line drawn on too much?

Agreed. I play a lot of Heroes of the Storm and have come to realize that the MoP-era talents were a lot like those aka lots of meaningful choices, but choosing certain talents together meant really cool synergy to evolve your Hero. I think that’s why I enjoyed that same design ideology in WoW too.

Ironically we have so much variety now but for some reason it feels like everything is kind of the same. :man_shrugging:

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Probably be one of those things they do every expansion and condense.
Swap out a few talents, work a few of the favored “hero talents” in place of the ones they took out, end up with no more and no less and call it a day.

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What talent tree do you have that lets you take everything? I wish I could take all the talents.

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Yes. It’s a special kind of bad.

Those talent trees are dead and gone and should stay buried.

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Haha I’m speaking in hyperbole! But one example that comes to mind was the Druid talents. Whereas before their 3 CC options were a shared tier (Mighty Bash, Mass Entaglement, & Typhoon), now you can pick all 3 of them at the same time in the class talent tree.

the hero talents are using the same format fyi

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I’m of the same opinion. The nonsense we have going on now is ridiculous considering the fact not all talent trees were made equally. PvP has become abysmal, and some interactions which were fun have been lost. Fighting in this nonsense is ridiculous, and PvP participation is at an all time low because the game isn’t fun like this.

I never thought I would wanna go back to the old trees, but I do. It’ll never be perfect, but balance was a hell of a lot better in previous expansions.

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I have been playing a lot of classic lately and this is one of the worst things about it. Having to go to a trainer is awful.

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I liked how it was in BfA but I also like simplicity.

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