New Horde vs Old Horde

Lore Story Forum
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Recently, I have been RPing this new character who is a secret Old Horde loyalist, mostly for comedic effect with a kind of boomer “back in my day, we had to walk to school in the snow and it was uphill both ways” sort of thing. However, it got me thinking, how much different is the Horde now from Doomhammer’s reign?

Thrall supposedly rebirthed the Horde, a Horde unlike it’s predecessor with the shamanistic roots of orc culture being the backbone for the entire society… But did he really? Ogrim did much of the same, killing the Shadow Council and banning the use of the Fel. It makes sense that Thrall and Ogrim would have some parallels, as Thrall idolized Doomhammer and lead by his example. The similarities did not end there. Orcs are still very much the same, Troll from a different clan, Goblins from a different cartel, and undead with different origins, but still the same general format.

Ogrim > Thrall (Both wanted to lead a Horde for the sake of Orcish kind, not as slaves to demonic influence)

Orcs then > Orcs now (More or less the same, separated by a generation or two?)

Darkspear > Amani (Perhaps a less personal hatred for humans and high elves)

Forsaken > Death Knights (Pretty different, yet both pretty shady. One is a cannibalistic horde of zombies bent on revenge against the Lich King. The other are essentially Shadow Council Warlocks made into Liches. The Forsaken are more nuanced and less of a monolith, is the main difference here.)

Bilgewater > Steamweedle (Is there really a difference here? I think Steamweedle is a slightly larger Cartel, but I am not sure.)

New Horde has Tauren and Elves in their ranks, which pushes them a bit over to the Light Wielding and naturalistic side of things. But Tauren at least seem to get scraps in terms of lore. Tauren really seem to only exist when the morality of the Horde is brought into question, and there needs to be a rebellion.

I guess my point here is that Thrall’s Horde is supposedly the Horde turning over a new leaf, even settling in a desert as a means of penance for their dark and violent past. Yet, Thrall leads by the example of a War Monger, from that supposedly dark history. Not only that, but most of the Horde seem to still be made up of races that are similarly questionable.

It’s strange to me, how the New Horde is apparently this more morally conscious iteration of the Horde, yet allowing the Crimson Ring to operate within Horde jurisdiction, allow the practice of slavery and human experimentation and cannibalism for the Forsaken, yet in the same breath condemn Dal’Rend and Zul’jinn for their involvement with the Old Horde? And still honor leaders of the Old Horde like Ogrim and Kargath?

Does Thrall even know that Dal’Rend was a trusted advisor to Ogrim?

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You did not post this on the character you meant to post this on, I think.

I’m going to be a bit charitable towards Thrall for the duration of this post - and say that Thrall is an idealist who has been forced to make a number of brutal compromises for the sake of practicality. He’s also very nice. Perhaps too nice.

The Crimson Ring exists because Orcs think that’s what power looks like. The Ogre Empire forced Orcs to fight eachother to prove its power over them. Some internment camps did the same. When the Orcs finally had a chance to build power for themselves, they emulated their oppressors - this is what power looks like, so this is what we’ll do. Thrall tried and failed to suppress this trend, ultimately permitting it as an outlet for his people’s aggression.

As for the Forsaken, it’s not clear that Thrall “allowed” anything. Despite people insisting that the Warchief position is an absolute dictator, there’s no evidence that Thrall ever sought to exert that level of authority over anyone, particularly non-Orcs. Simply put, he didn’t want to be a Tyrant, and marching into the Undercity and laying down edicts about what they were and weren’t allowed to do would have made him one. I’m fairly certain he didn’t order the Darkspear tribe to abandon cannibalism, he asked them to.

As for Zul’jin and Rend - I think you’re actually misreading this one a bit. Thrall never cared about what they did in the past. He never judged them for their association with the Old Horde. He judged them for what they were doing in the present - Rend was actively instigating against the Alliance and trying to start the Fourth War, a war that would inevitably blow back on Thrall’s Horde and put all of his people in danger.

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Oh boy this will be another 400 posts thread with people telling the Horde is evil, isn’t it?

Well, I see that the Old Horde was much more warmongering just for the sake of violence itself. The New Horde at least tries to figure out a reason to fight.

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I would say first Thrall had certain privileges when remaking the Horde which Orgrim did not. Orgrim inherited a Horde, or rather seized a Horde, which already existed and was in the middle of a horrific war of conquest under demonic influence. He did not have the privileges of just remaking the whole thing from the grounds up. So while he did purge the Shadow Council and all that, he was still in in a dark situation and following a dark path forced upon him.

When Thrall inherits the mantle of Warchief from Orgrim, it is a much different situation. The Old Horde is thoroughly broken and mostly non existent. Thrall and Orgrim are in the middle of liberating the Orc camps, so basically building a New Horde from the ground up. Further, when Thrall sails to Kalimdor he is not sailing there necessarily with the intent of conquest and pillage, but the foundation of a new land for his people.

So I’d say the main difference between the “New” and the “Old” is the circumstances under which they are put together and purpose of them. The Old Horde was demonic and bent on conquest, even when Orgrim tried to salvage it for the sake of his people. The New Horde is built on mutual survival in a hostile world.

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Guys may I be excused?
I need a vacation.

Its mostly hostile because of things they do themselves.
Can’t keep saying they are fighting for survival when they are constantly the ones that invade and try to conquer others.

Damn it… here I go again.

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I don’t agree with the direction of the Horde post Wotlk. That’s why I’m riding’ against Sylvanas this expac.

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Who even knows anymore.

I tried looking up the Crimson Ring and it didn’t even seem to exist as a concept until the comic came out so Varian could have some cheap pathos to try to mirror Thrall, so there was no hypocrisy over slavery until it was invented out of thin air for the alliance.

In a way, it feels like Blizzard’s writing the new horde even worse than the original because at least the first one had the “excuse” of being manipulated by demon magic. This time around, everyone ought to know better but it still seems to go on anyway. It’s not worth investing any effort to care anymore.

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I just take issue with the “fight survival” or “fighting to be accepted” and etc… it just doesn’t seem to be an accurate portrayal anymore.

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Actually, when they were being formed:

  1. The orcs were trying to escape conflict with the humans and were being pursued.
  2. The Darkspear had lost their homeland and were also being attacked by humans for no clear reason.
  3. The Tauren were on the verge of being wiped out by the centaur.

So clearly the three original races that Thrall brought together were struggling to survive in a hostile world.

  1. The Forsaken reached out for allies and saw themselves as rejected by humanity (and the emissaries they sent to Stormwind were apparently killed).
  2. The Blood Elves were literally fighting for their survival against the Scourge, and losing until the Forsaken and then Horde aided them.
  3. The Bilgewater goblins barely escaped being wiped out by Deathwing and then survived an Alliance attack.
  4. The Pandaren just wanted larfs or something.
  5. The Highmountain were almost annihilated by the Legion.
  6. The Nightborne were also facing destruction at the hands of the Legion and their own evil queen.
  7. The Mag’har barely escaped the onslaught of Yrel’s Light fanatics.

So…yeah, the New Horde was in fact established by disparate groups trying to survive in a hostile world(s).

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By that definition so is the Alliance.
Its nothing unique to the Horde.

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For no clear reason?! Several Human Kingdoms sacked in the first and second War, and orcs actively trying to summon demons was the reason…

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The Darkspear tribe sacked no Human Kingdoms to my knowledge. Also, the Trolls were in the Eastern Kingdoms first any ways. Don’t you believe the Night Elves have the authority to shoot arrows into any body trampling their sacred forests? Does this privilege not extend to the various trolls, who slaughtered the high elves and humans that attempted to settle their land?

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One thing I always find hilarious is when someone quotes Lor’themar exclaiming how the Alliance drives people away and into the Horde, ignoring that the Horde has driven people with unfavorable impressions of the Alliance back into the Alliance’s arms, in the form of Gilneas and Kul Tiras (and maybe some with neutral impressions, like the Night Elves, if we ever get their reasoning cleared up).

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Rend was never a trusted advisor to Doomhammer.

As a matter of fact Rend and Main hated Doomhammer for killing their father Blackhand and Doomhammer didn’t like them all that much either. However as they were useful and loyal then Doomhammer felt fine using them to further the Horde’s interests. For their part they recognized that Doomhammer was stronger than them and while they would liked to have challenged Doomhammer they knew that Doomhammer would win.

The best take away I have from it is that the Horde inadvertently adds to the Alliance and the Alliance inadvertently adds to the Horde.

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The Tides of Darkness Novel says otherwise.

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I doubt most human or elven kingdoms care which troll tribe is the one attacking them or not.

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I’ve read the book. Nothing suggests that Rend was a trusted advisor.
To quote from first page of Chapter 11 (page 164 on paperback).

This question was from Rend Blackhand. He and his brother Maim hated Doomhammer for killing their father and taking his place as Warchief. They were among the few who dared to question Doomhammer’s orders. Doomhammer allowed it, both because he any explanations he gave them would filer back to the rest of the Horde and because the Black Tooth Grin was a large, powerful clan and therefor useful. Besides the brothers might question actions or decisions but they never disobeyed a direct order, even when they disagreed with it. Doomhammer appreciated that, and was willing to tolerate their questions, up to a point.

Nothing in there suggests that Rend and/or Main were trusted advisers. In short they were useful, they were in charge of one of the more larger clans, and didn’t defy Doomhammer.

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" During the Second War, Rend served as lieutenant to Warchief Orgrim Doomhammer."

wow .gamepedia.com/Dal%27rend_Blackhand

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And? There is a difference between a lieutenant and a trusted advisor.

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Eh, not really. Doomhammer clearly trusted them, he sent Maim and Rend after Gul’dan, knowing that it was their own father who was Gul’dan’s puppets.