New community council has Story/Lore section

Uhm…

Err…

Ok. I’ll try. So…

A lot. A lot happened. If you think portraying racial stereotypes is racist, then you are the real racist, per a CC member. Doxxing is now just putting your avatar on a Twitter. Homophobia is bad and a discord did it, but the discord didn’t do it and here are screenshots. Skarm said I’m hisa favorite female blood elf hunter and if he denies this later, it is only because he’s embarrassed. W-irdo is a bannable word, and telling a CC member that they are wrong is cyberbullying. SmallIon had a point but he lacked the proper ability to word it without sounding very racist, but I think that got cleared up. Norinila thinks stories are better if non-straight people don’t have attraction because stories with LGBTQ+ characters are worse. Evelyssa woke up. Teldrassil is not Japan.

There you go.

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I mean imo I can sympathize with maizou even though we aren’t friends but at same time your a CC member you really shouldn’t be putting yourself in drama tbh.

An Overly Narrow Superlative, but possibly technically correct. And Micah was my favorite worgen, but then she race changed, and giving a Draenei ear skritches and belly rubs just isn’t the same.

Sylvanas (lovingly stroking an Azerite firing catapult labelled ‘Fat Man’): Well, it WASN’T, but… cackles

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:frowning_face:

:smiley: :smiley: :smiley:

I will take it. And run with it. And probably word it differently to make me sound better.

I thought I had a good handle on social justice until I logged into Classic today and oversaw Trade chat saying buying a woman dinner on a first date is racist. Now I don’t know what to believe is true.

I think that’s where this all went sideways. This isn’t about “justifying” it. The point is “why can’t they have the worlbuilding development that others get?”

Look at it this way: they spent the time and effort to give white elves more backstory, but POC just get left in the dust with none? That sounds pretty sad to me.

I’d want the worldbuilding, too. Not because it needs to be justified. Just because it creates a wonderful element that they currently don’t have that white elves have.

Personally, I don’t see color. I see people and cultures and they’re all awesome. And I would love to see more cultures given to those that don’t have them in any fantasy environment— regardless of color.

I think that’s what we need to take away from this.

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that’s a good old technique called social justice trolling. when the anti-sjw surge happened, people discovered that it’s really damn easy to bait conservatives into making 30 minute videos about random twitter user saying human males should be castrated. It’s probably the most successful bait technique right now. Make an absurd take under the guise of being a lib or left swinging person and watch the chaos.

People have gotten smarter though, not as many people fall for it as they did in the anti-sjw age.

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Except this guy legitimately went on a 30 minute rant about Tinder girls getting free meals.

And yet, who should pay for food in a restaurant? Every man for himself; in half; the first, in another area the second pays; proportionate to salary?

So first, let me start off properly. Hi GD bestie!!

That said, I already addressed this above, in that I do believe Smalls was trying to explain it similar to how you have here, and it’s not necessarily wrong.

BUT!! A few issues.

In WoW, there isn’t lore seperate for brown orcs, black orcs, grey orcs, etc. beyond “usually belongs to X/Y/Z clan”. There’s no seperate special lore explaining why different colored orcs have different lore; orc lore is for all orcs, regardless of skin color.

We also see night elves with some broad variations in skin color. Blue, purple, pink, light or dark are present and have been since Vanilla. Those variations do not need seperate lore to explain them. Why are there blue night elves? Where the pinkish ones cursed? Questions we never bother asking, because night elves are night elves.

Those are only two races I could point to where these questions have never been brought up, but let’s also talk about brown humans.

Because since Vanilla, we’ve had some brown human skin tones. They were very light brown compared to the much darker tones of today, but they existed. While a few dog whistlers would make a fuss about them, we’ve all largely accepted they exist and they don’t need seperate lore to exist. Teir lore is the same as all other humans’ lore.

But now it’s “white human lore” and “white high elf lore”, in spite of seventeen years of accepting on Azeroth, skin tones vary because they just do, and seperate lore doesn’t need to exist to explain blue night elves and pink-ish night elves in the “purple night elf lore”.

Additionally, establishing a whole lore explanation for why we’re allowed to play brown blood elves means we have to wait longer than the fifteen years we’ve already waited. The Sylvanas book has been in development for over a year. Are you comfortable saying that minority players should have to wait another year to play their brown skinned blood elves because Golden needs time to write the novel? Or another year for the expansion to come out and explain why they exist?

And then where I convince you. Thallia, I’m gonna totally win you over with this one. Are you ready?

Do you want the same writers and developers who developed Shadowlands to give their shot at writing a nuanced explanation for why black people exist on Azeroth? Do you trust them with that? Can you look at the writing lately and confidently say that giving them a chance to “justify the existence of black elves in the narrative” is better than just saying “well, sometimes elves have brown skin, like sometimes they have brown hair, or like how some night elves are blue.”

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sounds like my man had a very successful bait.

I pay half and half until things get more intimate, it feels wrong for one person to pay for the entire meal on your first few dates to me. It’s like we’re both working adults.

anyways i should probably stop derailing.

I think Alynsa touched on this some about the idea that stuff won’t get done in the process.

The issue for me that mentality shows up all the time in asking for LGBTQ+ stories, people will sit back and use the “I just don’t want them to do BAD stories, they shouldn’t do LGBTQ+ stories until x y z” all these requirements that straight stories don’t need or have, we’re talking about the people who brought us Tyrande and Malfurion if we waited for better writing representation would never get added. I think it also serves in both cases (just noting the similarities here) but people trying to present a veneer of reasonableness in other words people who don’t want minorities being represented hide behind “muh lore” for arguing against non white representation or “I want gay romance but only if it’s done RIGHT! Otherwise it’s virtue signaling and blabla” but their the same people who don’t want either in the first place, their just presenting other arguments as a veneer of reasonableness as they try to curb stop representation being added.

I know I kind of related two issues that I feel strongly on but its the only way I could explain how I see both similarly, and I would overall say

It just is odd to me white elves are the accepted situation but everyone else needs a reason for being? And I feel like thats the core of the issue for me, and a lot of people just come off suspect trying to argue from a veneer of reasonableness that more or less shows its face in literally any topic where people want representation.

Here is where I might be called a simp… but I try to be gentlemanly -

I have been invited to dinners and movies and dates by women. They swear they will pay their share, or even pay my fare, if I agree to go.

Often times I don’t want to go, but I go to be a sport. Because I feel bad, and I don’t want hurt their feelings. And in the end, I won’t let them pay - I pay for both of us.

It just feels wrong to let a lady in my company pay. That’s why I just go solo unless I get nagged.

And it’s just one of those arguments that’s sneaky because it sounds right, and people who aren’t trying to be sneaky can be sincerely thinking that without thinking about the connected issues.

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As reluctant as I am to re-open a potential can of worms, I’m to be honest with my feelings and going to play Devil’s Advocate: it depends on your setting. Ideally, all the races/cultures in it should have their own homelands and histories explain ‘where they come from’. But yea, if you start out your story with a very homogenous population and only later on add diversity, you do need to explain where they came from, and whether it’s done well or not… eh.

I’m not sure I’m explaining this well.

I keep trying to go into greater specifics, then deleting everything and starting over. Because, like you said, it can be ugly and embarrassing.

I’ll add this much for now: I am a straight cis middle aged middle class white guy. My demographic has beaten everyone else’s up and eaten their lunch for the past several centuries now. I will openly admit to being very close in several ways to the dreaded Incel/Neckbeard stereotype- with the (I feel very important) exception that I blame NO ONE ELSE IN MY LIFE BUT MYSELF for my lack of romance and social skills. I’m just that introverted in my personal life. I am a product of my demographic, but I feel no sympathy for those of it who squeal like stuck pigs just because they no longer always get to have their own way and sometimes, not even always, just sometimes, over the course of the past couple of decades, have to let non white, non-straight, non-male people have a say in things.

Despite the above I still have my moments of what could definitely be seen as entitlement. for example, I really didn’t like the recent version of D&D’s Ravenloft, partially because they Race Lifted, Gender Swapped, and Sexuality Swapped loads of characters to make it more diverse. That’s not my biggest gripe with the setting changes, and I honestly think that there is still plenty of good stuff in the new version, but I’ll openly confess to these feelings despite it making me look bad. In my defense I feel that that’s the second laziest* way to make things more diverse.

  • the first laziest being how Blizzard is dealing with the new racial skin tones, just saying ‘it was always that way, we just didn’t do it until now’. But I’ll forgive them that because y’know, magical mutation/Curse of Flesh shenanigans. And I don’t trust them to do it the hard way (add new zones/lore) with the amount of skill it would take to make it work.

Yeah… but that’s still lore and culture.

It doesn’t necessarily need to explain color, imo.

True. It’s something that could use a bit of fleshing out, imo. I always thought that, though. I’d love to see such things, but I like regional culture stuffs.

See, this is a phrase I dislike, personally: “why we’re allowed to.” I don’t think there needs to be a reason to be allowed. I just want to see more development of regions and cultures and whatnot.

ODEARGODNO. You win. LOL

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I get what you’re trying to say. It’s a difficult subject overall, because you want to show respect to the cultures and races and ethnicities involved or represented, but at the same time? You don’t want it to sound like you’re putting a heavier requirement on BIPOC race alternatives than the white ones.

But that’s the thing. The setting we’re all talking about? It has never made a distinction between skin color and ethnicity. Sometimes people are born white, sometimes they’re born brown. Some ogres are pink and human-like, other times ogres in the same clan are blue or red. Most night elves are purple, but there’s also blue night elves, pale and almost-white night elves, and other varieties. So unlike other fantasy settings, Azeroth really doesn’t need to say “this is white elf culture, not black elf culture” because we have literally zero evidence that skin tone equates to anything more than a vagarity of the Curse of Flesh.

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Oh yeah, it’s worded weird. Part of that is unintended, but I’d be lying if I denied there’s also intent.

What I mean by that line is “why the option exists now” but as a woman of color, I’d be lying if I didn’t also say that to me, it does kind of feel like Blizzard finally gave permission for people with skin tones like mine to even exist in the world.

:heart:

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I think we as fans can over think some of these things. We see the importance that skin color and other attributes like that have played in how people are treated in our history and we assume that has to be a universal thing. But these are fictional settings so the way the world works is ruled by what the story needs it to be.

Here in wow, we’ve got all the various races of the world, so a lot of the stories change those conflicts into conflicts like humans vs orcs, and so in a given race the story doesn’t really care about differences in skin color. So why spend a lot of time and effort to tie down something that’s not important to the story, especially with the downsides that has.

Firstly, in a game like this where we make our own characters, coming up with origins of cosmetics locks down stuff that doesn’t need to be locked down. If you add in a new settlement where the elves that have the new skin colors are all from, that’s great for the people who are interested in that story, but it tells people who just want to have the look but want them to be from the old homeland that that isn’t a thing.

As well, it can have an issue of othering the new options as necessarily different. It’s not on its own necessarily bad, but it can carry a feeling that say certain skin colors aren’t normal and have to be something different from what exists already for those options to be included.

But here, it’s a game, the color doesn’t impact the story, so I’m happy with it being added and treated as an oversight being corrected that allows people more choice and improves the feel of the world. We don’t need a cultural explanation if a new hairstyle, or tattoo or whatever option is added, so do we really need it for this since the topic never shows up in the world?

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Since I’m out of likes for the next hour, consider your posts given a like Skarm, Thallia and Tarrok.

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