I feel like there’s a correlation between rpers, social media, and adult content drama, but I can’t think of anything.
All I knew about her was her great post about the X-45 Heartbreaker, as well as RNG and FOMO in general.
This is what I’m referring to, along with some other comments she’s made.
Halite is typing. Get ready for the drama!
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I’m’a be the peace-maker here for a second.
Let Halite type their response before judging. They might just be clarifying their initial perspective into one that Evelysaa will find less problematic.
Let’s wait to judge until we’ve seen the content.
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Okay, uhm, I think you have misread my post a little bit, so I’ll just start out by stating that I am by no means on a witch hunt against ERP. Here’s a quote from my post, notice the highlighted bit:
I’m not against adult content in of itself. I don’t really engage with it myself, but I know a lot of people who do, and I do not want to take that away from them, nor do I think they are causing others harm by doing it. My concerns are all about responsibility, and to punish those who do not take their own responsibility very seriously. I don’t want to ban people because they do something they enjoy.
Required reading for what’s ahead: Blizzard’s Code of Conduct (https://eu.battle.net/support/en/article/42673). To quote the important part of it:
“When participating in communication of any kind (chat, voice communication, group finder), you are responsible for how you express yourself. You may not use language that could be offensive or vulgar to others. Hate speech and discriminatory language is inappropriate, as is any obscene or disruptive language. Threatening or harassing another player is always unacceptable, regardless of language used. Violating any of these expectations will result in account restrictions. More serious and repeated violations will result in greater restrictions.”
This is true, and I hope to hear from other RPers from any and all parts of the world. I can only really represent myself and in part the community I’m from, and sometimes there’s been expectations put on me to represent someone else - which I just can’t do. I can’t even properly represent the community I’m from, because there’s a lot of people in there that disagree with me, too. It would be nice to diversify the discussions by adding more voices to the discussion.
I can’t really speak for American RP culture, but I can certainly say that European RP culture at large doesn’t fully fit into this idea. It is true that there are subcultures within our community that definitely fits these descriptions, and there is a lot of drama and accusations being thrown around regarding ERP and all of that - and most of this is pretty bad, not gonna lie. Slutshaming and kinkshaming isn’t all that uncommon, and a lot of it leads directly to harrassment - which I think is bad and should also be punished, because that’s against the rules. There’s a lot of work that needs to be done there, from a progressive point of view, and I for one want to see more work being done there - not by Blizzard, but by the community itself.
I’m not really using this argument to enforce draconian laws, restrict the playerbase, or even target and harrass this portion of the community. I’m asking for better oversight over Goldshire (which I’ll remind you, I used as an example to a wider issue that applies to the entire game), because players within there are not only in breach of the Code of Conduct, but also because there is actual criminal behaviour going on in there. The problem isn’t the ERP, or the people who participate in it, the problem is that they’re doing so in an unregulated public space. Just because I don’t think you should be allowed to jack off in the middle of a public space, particularly where there are children, doesn’t mean I don’t think you shouldn’t be allowed to jack off at all.
It’s also not just about the parents’ responsibility here. Not everyone in Goldshire are engaging in criminal behaviour that involves child abuse, I don’t even think there’s a lot of it in the first place. Obviously, a responsible adult in Goldshire will immediately turn away any twelve-year-old that walks inside. But if these same adults also have a very public profile that goes into vivid detail of everything, they are exposing these same twelve-year-olds to sexual content without asking for their consent first, without asking their age first, because this is of public record. They might not even mean to or realise that they are exposing these children to it, or for that matter, other adults who aren’t consenting to this. Should they get banned for that? The Code of Conduct says “Violating any of these expectations will result in account restrictions. More serious and repeated violations will result in greater restrictions.”. You’ll probably be left off with a warning to start with.
But… not everyone does, and that’s the problem. Parents especially don’t know what’s going on in there. There are no signs that says “18+” in Goldshire. There are no checks in place to verify that everyone that goes in there is both old enough to give consent, and actually giving their consent. You need prior knowledge to actually know that Goldshire is a place where this sort of thing happens.
It doesn’t spread the problem out, because it’s not just about Goldshire, it’s about the whole world of Warcraft. Everywhere is subject to the same Code of Conduct, everything you do in public, whether you are in Goldshire, Stormwind, Orgrimmar, is subject to the Code of Conduct. You are free to do whatever you please in private, and no one is stopping you from that. In fact, if people report you and you get banned because you ERP in private with another consenting adult, they are in the wrong.
I believe this is the correct quote from the TRP3 report system:
Beyond this update, be aware that all roleplay profile contents will be logged and can be reported to Blizzard for abuse. An issue arose within the past year or so where some individuals were extensively using roleplay profiles to harass others on an ongoing basis, or to publish someone else’s personal details. As such, implementing the reporting capability became a high priority for profile addons, and it has been done in time for 8.0 prepatch launch.
This means you should clean up your profiles now. The guidelines on acceptability are roughly what you’d see in public chat channels. If you wouldn’t say it in /say, don’t put it in your profile. These reports are all reviewed exclusively by Blizzard – addon authors have no power or influence whatsoever, so please don’t hurl abuse at any of them if your profile is ever reported.
That said, I ask that everyone exercise common courtesy when it comes to reporting. Don’t abuse the report system – abuse of the report system to harass someone can result in actions against your account, instead of the person being reported. Furthermore, please use your judgement when it comes to reporting – try to reserve reports for profiles that incite hatred or violence, that harass and target individuals, or that publish personal or harmful details on others. These sorts of profiles, while few and far between in a community like this, are serious enough problems that this needed to be done.
I never said this was the reason it was added, but it has come to be that. As stated above, the only things that fly in TRP3 profiles are things that are deemed acceptable in similar public channels, and so, the Code of Conduct is a good guideline.
TL;DR: read the start of this “essay” that got way longer than I first intended it to be, it’s a bad habit of mine :<
Finally, I just want to say I don’t want to cause any drama. I just want to make sure my points are clear and properly represented; I don’t even think I can try to convince anyone to see it my way. If you don’t like me, or what I’m writing about, that’s all good with me.
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When are you going to criticize the writing of shadowlands now that is over so we don’t experience this in 10.0 or any future patch. Edit: not asking you to bash like I did but offer some criticism
It’s on my list somewhere down the line. I’ve been trying to approach it properly by doing research and stuff along the way, so it’s taking me forever to do, sadly :<
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I appreciate at least someone is acknowledging that the story could be much better. Thank you. Just I feel like a lot of us are disappointed with shadowlands
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Mmkay. I’m about to get my pizza. When I come back, expect a lengthy “I see both sides of this”, middle of the road mini-essay. I got some feelings on this and plan to express them after delicious pizza.
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I just want someone to point out how the story could be better. Edit: I am glad that at someone acknowledges that so I have no qualms now I will leave this thread.
You clearly think it’s causing some kind of harm if it’s something you’re going against. There’s no reasonable concern for responsibility if it’s not for the safety of others.
You want to punish those people though, what punishment do you expect to be given to solve the problem you have? The only logical solution is to ban those people, which I think is draconian. This is all about restricting the people there who you disapprove of.
This child abuse you’re mentioning is hyperbolic and overblown, you even admit you don’t think there’s a lot of it. No one is getting hurt from reading some naughty words on a screen. In the US the game is rated by the ESRB as a T rating with a Users Interact descriptor, with the description for that being, “Indicates possible exposure to unfiltered/uncensored user-generated content, including user-to-user communications and media sharing via social media and networks”. This is a warning for what users should expect before they buy the game, a game which requires an account owned by an adult, and it is assumed that whoever owns that account is the one who is playing on it. Anyone who opens a TRP profile is doing so of their own accord, thus of their own consent.
Don’t act like the majority of players don’t know what Goldshire is about. World of Warcraft has been around long enough that most new players are joining the game because of recommendations from friends, and if those people are playing on an RP server then it’s unlikely that someone didn’t tell them about the place or even that ERP is something that happens. The only race that starts near Goldshire is Humans, making it less than a 1/23 chance of someone new going their uninformed, less than that because of the inclusion of Exile’s Reach. Which, now that I think about it, is required for new players to start at along with doing BFA zones for leveling, which means the vast majority of people going to Goldshire are doing so because it’s a place they’re seeking out.
So why did you specify Goldshire?
You’ve been contradicting the points you make in your posts about this, which to me make for weak arguments. I’m glad that you’ve addressed actual problems in your post here, and even if I’m coming off as aggressive I do appreciate the work you’ve been doing on the Community Council along with you responding here, but I think you’re better off giving effort and focus to the issues that actually should be dealt with.
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Pizza Time!!
These two quotes sum up the entirety of my feelings and why I’m both-sides-ing this. Allow me to ramble, rant, and relate my own experiences for a minute.
Back when I first discovered WoW RP and got convinced to download an addon to see profiles, my very first (and second, and third, and fourth) experience could best be described as unsolicited smut. I was an adult (and allegedly still am), but it was very overwhelming. And not even in Goldshire or SMC or the usual places you might see something like that; it was Shattrath, back when people went there. Just straight walls of text boxes of smut, with no warning at all.
Of course, this was in the olden days of addons, and on Moon Guard during its rise to infamy, so that context is important.
From my very niche experience, things have gotten significantly better as addons advance in complexity and the community has become more aware of the possible presence of minors. When I log on my Alliance alts, who still live on MG, I might see a class replaced with some questionable content (and I’m pretty sure that isn’t a class!!!), and Goldshire is certainly an… Experience, I rarely see anything blush-worthy unless I ignore clearly written warning signs and go out of my way to click through a profile.
Now, my experience is not everyone’s experience. Obviously not. But I’d wager that the ERP sub-community has largely taken steps to prevent potentially abusive situations or accidental exposure of adult content, again given my own sample size (which could very well be observer bias).
Now, clearly the issue is still relevant. It might take a few extra steps to get to the naughty bits, and it requires you to already be very aware of what a big pile of acronyms mean (I still have no idea what most of them mean beyond “Alynsa will probably be blushing soon”) to avoid seeing it. There should be a better method of… I’m grasping for the word. Not shielding, not advertising, but something between those for ERP or other NSFW content. And it can’t just be “shove them in a corner” either, because what happens when The Children find themselves in that corner?
But I have seen how Blizzard “moderated” Goldshire in the past, and it was blanket ban waves. I caught a 24 hour one that got shortened or overturned, all for the crime of “being in Goldshire after a bad news story got put out by a games journalist”. IIRC, I was mining copper in the kobold cave nearby.
Blizzard has a long and storied history of moderating to extremes; punish everyone remotely suss or let the children play without parental supervision. Blatantly racist guild names going unpunished in spite of multiple reports for months, openly homophobic general chat going on for longer, so on and so forth. Or banning anyone who spends too much time fishing (I almost got banned for that too!!). Or someone who happens to play for too many consecutive hours.
Blizzard getting more involved in the RP scene in an authorative way will lead to only one of two ends; nothing changes at all, or RP dies. It’s as simple as that.
My personal opinion is that while the problem exists, and it is bad, I do not trust Blizzard to be the solution. If they’re not addressing already-reported RP profiles, then throwing in more resources to the RP community won’t make them start. It’ll just do what has been done before; ban waves for a minute then back to nothing.
If anything, this might be where the addon community is better suited to step in.
Back to pizza!!
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If this were still the case, it’d be more reasonable for people to be concerned.
Many people are courteous enough to include 18+ warnings at the start of their profiles, and even before opening them there’s usually indicators of what they’re about.
The vast majority of abuse that occurs is within guilds, where people get coerced into doing things they don’t want to do and are intimidated because of power dynamics. The guilds are where bad activities get hidden, including cases of child grooming, and it takes several steps that tend to be easy to avoid to get put into a situation like that. It’s up to server communities to find these groups, and after getting evidence of explicit activities involving minors, to report them to authorities. Some of this harm is done by people who claim to be against all of this, in order to trick people and have deniability. This type of thing isn’t done by random people in Goldshire, it’s done by organized groups, and going against Goldshire pushes people to hidden places that foster danger where people can’t see it.
I think the solution is education. Parents need to talk to their children about what can be found on the internet, and speak to them often about what it is they engage with. People in the game should explain to new players things that can be found in the game. What should be combated is ignorance. Knowledge can be very helpful.
I want to avoid having innocent people get banned. I don’t trust Blizzard to solve a problem in a way that isn’t heavy handed. They get extreme in their solutions. I suspect that them intervening in this would cause more harm than good. It’d definitely cause another scandal for them.
I do think them getting involved in the RP scene would cause damage to it. I don’t trust Blizzard to implement measures that would actually be helpful. Which might be partly why this is a subject I’m so concerned about.
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Phil Spencer Wants Gamers To Treat Developers With More Dignity and Respect - Community / General Discussion - World of Warcraft Forums (blizzard.com) Well folks here is a CC member that thinks we should respect dictators. EDIT: You can disagree if you want i just find this saddening tbh
Developers should be treated with respect, but they should give players respect too.
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They should be treated with manners and politeness but by no means should I respect them.
I respect the people who have given me a game that has brought me much enjoyment.
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And they earned that respect. I used to respect these developers but now I don’t. Anyone who forces me to respect someone who has not earned it deserves no respect from me. They will however be treated with manners and politeness.
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“Respect” has multiple meanings. People often equivocate them. “Respect” can simply being considerate of somebody’s feelings. It can also mean a sense of admiration, like the respect you may have for someome who achieved something great. They are different.