Never Forget. The Alliance kept orcs as slaves

[Corlia-amanthul (Corlia)]

Sorry I think many would disagree with you.

You just keep refusing to accept the fact the Orcs are not evil and maybe to themselves they were not evil at all maybe they fought over clan pride.

Evil is subjective one man evil is another man good. the Draenei are very evil for doing what they did MAYBE the legion would have found the orcs later on but the fact remains they followed the Draenei to the orcs own world and set events in motion.

[Averyx-quelthalas (Averyx)]

@Cowthlic-borean-tundra

So when the Night elves murder Orcish peons for chopping down trees that’s okay but Orcs had no right to their own homeland?

Orcs didn’t attack draenei because it was their homeland (Draenei populated empty zones like orcs supposedly wanted to do after leaving the EK) they attacked draenei to pillage or just kill.

@Corlia-amanthul

your arrived on there Planet un announced and just made your self at home. Yeah no thanks not how it works the Draenei brought destruction to many worlds cause the legion followed them.

We know VERY VERY little of the Orcs beside that retcon you support now I remember in 2007 when I started the quests lines in each capital that explained each race. But those were removed along with many other quests to stream line the game. I don’t see the Orcs Evil I see the space goats as evil cause they still refuse to admit they brought the legion to the Orcs and set events in motion.

Blame the legion, if Draenei never stopped running the legion would’ve conquered all worlds.

We know a lot of them. Whether you like it or not, WoD happened and it told the story of the orcs who were always evil. After all one of the most evil orcs was a nagrand mag’har.

@Corlia-amanthul

Evil is subjective

No it isn’t.

@Corlia-amanthul

Evil is subjective one man evil is another man good. the Draenei are very evil for doing what they did MAYBE the legion would have found the orcs later on but the fact remains they followed the Draenei to the orcs own world and set events in motion.

Is not a maybe, the Legion would’ve reached Azeroth either way and once they did, without the draenei they would’ve gotten the power to wipe out all worlds.

[Sunne-area-52]

https://classic.wowhead.com/quest=3569/seeping-corruption

This is the chain they are thinking of, I know there was also one with a human and a dwarf but those don’t count as allies.

[Corlia-amanthul (Corlia)]

That the one.

[Corlia-amanthul (Corlia)]

Yet you keep missing the Orcs may have never had a part in the events if the Draenei had used common sense and avoid another habitable planet like Draneor. but they didn’t did they.

[Malkarus-runetotem (Malkarus)]

@Corlia-amanthul

Sorry I think many would disagree with you.

Many do. I will continue to try to change their minds. I love a good debate.

@Corlia-amanthul

You just keep refusing to accept the fact the Orcs are not evil and maybe to themselves they were not evil at all maybe they fought over clan pride.

No, you’ve attempted to put all evidence to the contrary in the shredder, in order to maintain a viewpoint that is otherwise slaughtered. Warcraft Chronicles - the lore - disprove this argument. As does Warlords of Draenor, where we see the Clans in their native environment without demonic influence.

We can literally take this debate down to each individual clan if you want.

• We can talk about the brutishness of the Shattered Hand - how they cut off a hand to honor Kargath. How they brutally torture themselves and their victims.
• We can talk about the Warsong Clan’s warlike ways. Grommash was named “Hellscream” for his terrifying scream - a peaceful clan’s peaceful behavior would not create the situation for Grommash to receive that name.
• We can talk about the Bleeding Hollow’s dark blood rituals, and their chief traditionally ripping an eye out to honor those traditions.
• We can talk about the Laughing Skull’s sadistic humor and trophy collections. News flash: a peaceful clan does not choose to name their children things like “Limbflayer”

@Corlia-amanthul

Evil is subjective one man evil is another man good. the Draenei are very evil for doing what they did MAYBE the legion would have found the orcs later on but the fact remains they followed the Draenei to the orcs own world and set events in motion.

Evil is not subjective - I don’t think anyone would debate that the Legion is evil. The Draenei are not evil - they do not go out of their way to hurt people, and they are peace-loving. Their lore in general goes along with this - the best example is Durotan and Orgrim being saved by the Draenei despite the risks.

Draenei did, however, get pursued by an evil group that corrupted the orcs. That does not make them evil or very evil, that makes them unintentionally complicit in the downfall of a race.

[Battywash-area-52]

thats partly why i went to horde with most of my toons, the horde when i started were pretty much the good guys as well as stronger, more interesting, more energetic etc. the other reason…i can’t even give most examples here because even rated X films have limits so this forum for sure wouldnt like it lol

[Corlia-amanthul (Corlia)]

Serious it was there own race that chased them… So there goes that argument. Eradar = Draenei the very same race. Just like Void elf = Blood elf.

you keep saying we see the orcs in there native environment yet you miss the point Garrosh jumped time and changed history again. before we even arrived.

[Steamwheedle-blackwater-raiders]

Remember when Orgrim killed Anduin Lothar in a peace treaty negotiation by ambushing him with bloodlusted ogres?

Pepperidge Farm remembers. And it also remembers that damn retcon.

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Malkarus-runetotem

He may have been tempted, but he wasn’t forced.

Also Durotan (along with all of the frostwolves) and Orgrim Doomhammer refused to drink the blood as well.

Basically Kil’jaeden, through Ner’zhul and later Gul’dan spread a conspiracy theory that the Draenei are gonna kill the orcs. Due to Ner’zhul being a well respected shaman (prior to him finding out he was duped, as KJ was pretending to be his dead wife), the other orc chieftains trusted what he had to say. By the time Ner’zhul knew he was duped, it was too late as Gul’dans influence within the clans was getting stronger. And the trust that the chieftains had in the Elder Shaman was long gone.

[Malkarus-runetotem (Malkarus)]

@Corlia-amanthul

Serious it was there own race that chased them… So there goes that argument. Eradar = Draenei the very same race. Just like Void elf = Blood elf.

That is such a bad faith argument that it isn’t funny. Are you trolling?
The Burning Legion existed before Eredar joined them, and the vast majority of the force that pursued the Draenei were demonic races. Pointing out that an Eredar oversaw this pursuit doesn’t diminish any of my arguments in the slightest.

Like, I can phrase things your way. “Grommash drank a Pit Lord’s blood, not Eredar’s blood - there goes that argument.”

The Legion’s ground soldiers are the Felguard - Mo’arg - demons that are not Eredar. Many commanding officers of the Legion are the Shivarra - demons - not Eredar. These made up the bulk of the forces we see in Outland, Draenor, and the Broken Isles. The Eredar are commanders, but they did not form or change the Burning Legion - they changed to suit it.

@Corlia-amanthul

you keep saying we see the orcs in there native environment yet you miss the point Garrosh jumped time and changed history again. before we even arrived.

Garrosh changed a plot point. He did not suddenly rewrite hundreds of years of Orcish history. He arrived around 10-20 years in the past, not 200.
So I’m just going to do one example this time because arguing is tiring.

• How can Garrosh Hellscream be the reason that the Warsong Clan (gee, sounds peaceful) waged war? How is it that Garrosh is responsible for Grommash being named Hellscream, when Garrosh himself possesses that name in a timeline that he did not alter?

Here are the facts, and you can ignore them but you can’t dodge them as far as a lore debate goes.

• Orc Clans were warlike, their names have always been warlike, and those names came from their activities. These activities were occurring in both timelines, well before Garrosh’s existence or time jump.
• The Bleeding Hollow clan was named for their blood magic (and warchiefs’ habit of ripping an eye out of their sockets). That is not Garrosh’s actions.
• The Warsong Clan was warlike, hence the name. Hellscream got his name by being terrifying in combat. Garrosh did not cause his family name, nor did he cause the Clan’s name.
• The Shattered Hand Clan rips their own arm off to honor Kargath Bladefist, who did the same to escape an Ogre arena. They brutally torture and scar themselves and their victims.

I’m sorry, but if you disagree with this then you are participating in revisionism, not arguing for lore.

[Steamwheedle-blackwater-raiders]

Remember that time Grom disobeyed orders from Thrall not to attack the humans and attacked them? And how Grom was sent to Ashenvale as a punishment?

And once he was there, he killed Wisps to piss off the night elves, then instead of retreating, he drank demon blood even though the Warsong Orcs and Troll Witch Doctors said it was a really bad idea, and he himself knew of the dangers of doing so?

Yeah. Not exactly a smart moment for him.

[Alldionsbane-wyrmrest-accord]

/yawn

Sounds like Communist propaganda, but okay.

You do you, target. Just don’t whine when you get bodied.

[Aedelynn-bleeding-hollow]

oh gurrrrrllll you nasty

[Denona-khazgoroth (Denona)]

@Corlia-amanthul

the fact is evil race of gypsy space goats bought the bad guys to another planet and got them corrupted.

The Draenei were kinda forced to land on Draenor as their pilot (K’ara) was becoming a void naaru due to working overtime. And the other two Naaru were dipping into the void as well (K’ure and D’ore). So their ship crashed and was beyond repair. D’ore also died in the crash.

They didn’t look at Draenor and say “that is a nice planet to bring the Legion to”. They crashed landed on the planet and were stuck there.

[Piers-earthen-ring]

There are only 3 (maybe 4) races who have not committed such atrocities: The Tauren, Pandas, Gnomes and maybe Goblins. Yes individuals of each race may have done some nasty things., but as a whole race… I don’t think so.

As for the orcs, they came to this world They were not invited.

[Neoyoshi-zuljin]

[Pigzig-felstriker]

trolls are slaves in goblin starting zone
never forget the stolen land

[Sinelius-proudmoore]

never forget, the old alliance who kept orcs are not the current alliance who are much better. If we were using that logic, never forget the horde were originally a bunch of savages from another planet who only knew of blood and war. So should we strike down the current horde cause of them due to your logic?

[Sunne-area-52]

Trolls enslaved the original, stupid version of goblins so it’s sort of like revenge, but doesn’t fix anything.