They’ve topped the meters in AQ for long enough now. How about a balance update?
3 Likes
Leave spriests alone, they never got to see raids in vanilla/classic
4 Likes
this phase is super balanced my guy. the variation between top dps and median is like 7%-10% basically across all percentiles with only balanced druids and warlocks being consistently in the top. i mean some specs need a buff but the top end is in a pretty good state actually
2 Likes
Warlocks have to do top dps or no one would play them.
Warlocks are doing at least 16% more damage than Warriors.
It’s mind-boggling to me how much PvE enthusiasts obsess over a number that’s entirely dictated by factors beyond their control, like raid composition, team performance, or whether their class happens to be buffed or nerfed at the moment. you press two insanely difficult buttons in the correct sequence and deal X damage, you feel good. You press the same two difficult buttons in the same order and deal Y damage, you feel bad. 30 to 40 year old’s btw
3 Likes
yes and the solution is to buff warriors not nerf 5 random classes
1 Like
Yes. Hunters are always nerfed. Why not other classes?
this is wrong, its actually about 35% if you omit Arms warrior. Its 150% if you include Arms lmao. For reference, in 2019 classic the gap from Ret to a BiS fury was 70%.
1 Like
worst part is all these classes doing about 20% more dmg than fury, are doing it single target on 0 armor targets in raid with world buffs. Outside of raid they do around 300% of what fury can do lmao, AND they have all their hybrid healing and utility… So sad.
1 Like
where are you getting that number(s)
per warcraft logs 2 week average dps phase 6
@99% top- aff warlock 4718.22 median- sub rogue 4372.21 %difference is 7.3%
@50% top- balance druid 2892.4 median- melee hunter 2534.63 %difference 12.3%
yes, arms warrior needs a buff that doesnt make the listed classes above op. arms warrior is grossly underperforming some of the caster classes are only slightly overperforming given blizzard has said in the past they try to balance at +/- 5% between dps classes and most classes are falling within that range
and comparatively looking at fresh servers
99% warrior 1176.16 median 630.705 %diff 46.3%
50% warrior 411.63 median 263 %diff 36.1%
SOD is way more balanced. SOD balance performance is pretty close to retails as well. showing the underlying balance philosophy is similar
yeah and warriors need a buff. whats your point? that doesnt make the casters OP
its not
the gap in 2019 vanilla from the worst dps to a bis fury warrior was 70%, I went and found the old WoWhead articles citing WCL dps parses.
its greater than that in SoD
additionally, in SoD, its balanced around world buffs so while a fury warrior is maybe 10% less than shadowpriest in raid, using sims that net them the same dps will now net a shadow priest 300% fury dps if you remove the raid and world buffs. So if youre out doing a quest or find someone in world pvp, the priest has 3x your damage potential. Nothing in 2019 classic was that extreme. Classic was actually overall very balanced if you removed world buffs. Hybrids had a tax but they were still super strong classes and dps was relatively similar across all classes in say, a dungeon. Rogue overall is actually the top tier class in classic because it is a close 2nd in raid, the best dps outside of raid, has amazing farm potential, and is among the best pvp classes.
Additionally because of how bad they leave arms, the gap from top to bottom in SoD is over 100%, far greater than the 2019 classic top to bottom. The other silver lining is that fury warrior only was an outlier in 2019 because WBs let it spam heroic strike, which removes the -19% hit penalty and glancing blows. This condition cant exist outside of raid so they were actually pretty bad in pvp and not that great outside of raid, leaving them as a “raid only” type of power spike. But in SoD the kinds of PVE like boomkin and shadow priest are also god-tier outside of raid and ruin everyone else’s gameplay expierence in PVP.
Also the best way to rank PVE raid dps is to just go to a tank and spank type fight at the 90th percentile like Huhuran and then compare it to overall if you desire, but this helps remove gimmiks from aoe, and it removes the cheese that happens at 99th percentile and beyond. WCLs had to change parse rules many times to combat ppl like Ahlaundo cheesing his parses.
If you actually check the charts locks are both the worst and the best damage. The variance is massive on lock atm.
no its not, Arms is the worst by a huge margin. ANd then right above your worst spec is fury. So, would you rather have all your specs range from the best in the game to playable, or among the worst to obsolete?
Arms is not a real pve spec. Fury is. That’s like saying smite priest is the worst dps
2 Likes
Just double checked to make sure. Fury war is above. Destruction lock, combat rogue, enh shammy, BM hunter, and arcane mage
2 Likes
If you want to be #1dps overall than play the #1 dps overall class and spec. Then find a raid team that has the same values.
If your raid team is not the sweatiest of players, you aren’t getting maximum dps/kill anyway.
Did your team clear the latest content? Was it enjoyable? Did loot get sent out?
If yes to all those, then who cares?
You don’t get anything extra in this version for your personal performance.
3 Likes
honestly in terms of super high parses , if you do not have the entire raid team geared towards and helping with said parses , you shouldnt try to be what you cant be.
some of it is skill (hell maybe alot of it is) but alot of it is luck and makeup and getting all crits or whatever and its more a game of chance than actual achieveable solo accomplishments .
if you do not have those things , dont try and speak to what people that have gone over with a fine comb on the mechanics and what not actually do.
its not a worthwhile thing to cry about.
i remember even on tbc classic running on my ele shaman getting high purples and some oranges and knowing that even with that high of a parse a mage with low blue parses would out damage me on overall damage.
it sucked then but with the perspective of time i realize i was getting out of the stuff i was able to do as much as i could and am happy with my performance.
try to compete within the class you play and let yourself be happy with getting high purples as that is the best you can get without serious rng and a raid kitted out to actually make it possible to get oranges and crap.
its not
the gap in 2019 vanilla from the worst dps to a bis fury warrior was 70%, I went and found the old WoWhead articles citing WCL dps parses.
The gap between lowest and highest extremes doesnt convey any information about overall balance between the collective classes other than an imbalance exists. It lacks a frame of reference, and you haven’t removed skewing nor outlier data points. to get the full picture you need establish what/where balance is. meaning you are either looking for a mean or a median for your data set. Since how we value dps is categorical in nature (essentially any variance is bad) and are not looking for a normal distribution using the median is better frame of reference. For classes above the median, you measure down and for classes below you measure up. for example @99% affliction lock is +7.2% above the balance point. while warrior is -X% below the balance point (didnt do the math because the premise of the poster are that casters are OP and no one is contesting that warriors are in the dumpster).
additionally, in SoD, its balanced around world buffs so while a fury warrior is maybe 10% less than shadowpriest in raid, using sims that net them the same dps will now net a shadow priest 300% fury dps if you remove the raid and world buffs. So if youre out doing a quest or find someone in world pvp, the priest has 3x your damage potential. Nothing in 2019 classic was that extreme. Classic was actually overall very balanced if you removed world buffs. Hybrids had a tax but they were still super strong classes and dps was relatively similar across all classes in say, a dungeon. Rogue overall is actually the top tier class in classic because it is a close 2nd in raid, the best dps outside of raid, has amazing farm potential, and is among the best pvp classes.
I already factored world buffs in by presenting the @99% calculation. that’s the closest data set to peak player performance with all available buffs (basically ideal coadditions). using 90% would also probably still work but id argue there is a potential for outside factors to play a larger role. @50 is also good to look at because it represents a data set where players are at least proficient in skill and allows for analysis of specifically how an imbalance is occurring. for example, melee hunters are the 10th at 50% and 4th @99% which suggest some kind of scaling issue skewing upward (which in this case is probably world buffs).
Further, you can’t really combine data sets for different activities as you correctly cited why. different activities have different needs. DPS is a poor metric for pvp for example as burst instant damage and mitigation tend to be the limiting factors. DPS doesnt tell you much of anything in that regard. But again, circling back around the original poster literally cited raid dps balance: “They’ve topped the meters in AQ for long enough now. How about a balance update?”. so, you are also largely making an argument out of context.
Additionally because of how bad they leave arms, the gap from top to bottom in SoD is over 100%, far greater than the 2019 classic top to bottom. The other silver lining is that fury warrior only was an outlier in 2019 because WBs let it spam heroic strike, which removes the -19% hit penalty and glancing blows. This condition cant exist outside of raid so they were actually pretty bad in pvp and not that great outside of raid, leaving them as a “raid only” type of power spike. But in SoD the kinds of PVE like boomkin and shadow priest are also god-tier outside of raid and ruin everyone else’s gameplay expierence in PVP.
again, arms is underpowered and is in need of a buff no one is contesting that. but that doesn’t mean the top is grossly overperforming relative to a balanced game state.
Also, you are factually wrong here. world buffs were disabled in raid for season of mastery and warriors still overperformed by a very large margin. RED BAR STRONK
Also, warriors in era pvp scaled with having a healer. mitigation vs output was the issue there.
Also the best way to rank PVE raid dps is to just go to a tank and spank type fight at the 90th percentile like Huhuran and then compare it to overall if you desire, but this helps remove gimmiks from aoe, and it removes the cheese that happens at 99th percentile and beyond. WCLs had to change parse rules many times to combat ppl like Ahlaundo cheesing his parses.
tank spank isnt a great way to measure real world dps because the vast majority of raid encounters involve some type of mechanic and movement. its a good way to measure max potential output but that’s useless data if the majority of the time those conditions don’t exist. aggregated boss data gives a better picture and focal point for better outcome.
@99% is a still a large enough player pool (remember the data is aggregated) to filter out the cheese. ideally you would be looking at full spectrum from say 90 to 100 and identifying and removing outliers. but thats for the dev team who is getting paid to do.