Need Experience Classic rogue advice

Greetings fellow rogues. This may be the wrong forum perhaps. But the rogue forums are dead and this is a question about classic rogues which I am unsure if the class dynamics are different than retails current state.

I have a question regarding weapons (currently playing Classic). To my knowledge, it is beneficial to have a slow main hand and a fast offhand.

My current set up is:

MH: One hand weapon
Sword - Outlaw Sabre: 35-67 Damage, 2.7 weapon speed, 18.9 DPS.

OH: One hand weapon

Dagger - Meteor Shard: 23-43 Damage, 1.8 weapon speed, 18.3 DPS.

However, I currently purchased The Butcher for 4g (I know I can sell for later but I can’t help but to equip it since I dinged 26)

Sword: Main Hand Weapon- Sword

The Butcher - 38-72 Damage, 2.8 weapon speed, 19.6 DPS.

The Butcher is the best weapon. However, what do I equip for my offhand? The DPS is better on my Outlaw Sabre, along with 14 atb bonus. But is it necessary to have a fast weapon in my OH even if a much slower weapon with higher dps and swing damage is greater?

Does weapon DPS only matter in your MH for ability attacks?

Another question is, if a fast OH weapon has superior DPS compared to a slow MH, do I use the fast OH with higher dps in my MH and put the lower dps slow weapon in my OH?

Can someone please help me understand what determines what weapon you use in your MH and OH?

Thank you

Go for stats or go for speed on your offhand, speed for applying poisons. Up to you really.

Fast OH for poison application.

The only time you’d ever go slow offhand is if you have the combat dual wield talent and a really high hit chance.

Please, for the love of god, don’t listen to people telling you to go fast offhand.

For combat:
Your off-hand speed is largely irrelevant. A slower & hard hitting off-hand is actually, arguably, better in all areas. This can be a pita in pvp for poison application, but combat was gimmicky-at-best in pvp back in vanilla.

For assassination:
Your off-hand speed is largely irrelevant. A slower off hand is actually, arguably, better outside of pvp.

Why:
There were two things which influenced the development of the “fast off-hand” rogue preference.

For combat, there was Combat Potency. A talent which regenned energy on off-hand hit. i can’t remember if the original implementation was 5 per hit, or a chance to proc for 20, as both iterations have existed throughout the game. This was a talent implemented in BC.

For assassination (and actually combat as well), there was the removal of debuff slots. Vanilla wow originally had a 8 debuff per mob limit, and later on a 16 debuff per mob limit. That meant that, in a raid of 40 people, less than half of the raid could put a SINGLE debuff onto the boss… At the best of times. The current tank took up 3 of those debuff slots with Sunder Armor, T-clap, and Demo-shout. The rest were ‘reserved’ for utility usage. For example: Shadow priests needed two (mind-flay was a debuff based attack) not because they were top-tier dps, but because they were mana batteries for the healers. Suffice it to say that rogue Deadly Poison wasn’t high on the priority list, and poisons didn’t actually do much damage in classic. Not to mention a not insubstantial amount of mobs were flat-out immune.

This changed in BC, when they removed the debuff limit.

So, where did that leave rogues?

Well, it left them using instant poison. Which was a pretty negligible damage source even before you got into the issues with small amounts of hit on gear, and massive off-hand hit / parry / glancing / the % hit chance on rogue gear not effecting poisons (poisons were ‘magical’ hits). Really the only thing you should care about for your off-hand is going to be stats. That being agi, raw dps, bonuses (+% to crit or hit), and procs. Speed is about the least important factor.

This is even more true for combat swords. The 5% double swing massively out damages any minuscule benefit from poisons, so it’s much better to shove a beefy slow weapon into your OH and go to town. Traditional combat swords ran stuff like double Skullforged Reaver, or Chromo Temp + Maladath.

EDIT:

An important explanation: Weapon speed is hugely important for your MH weapon, even more so than the actual DPS.

This is because, back in vanilla, % damage increase abilities (Backstab, SS, Hemo) scaled with the speed of your mainhand. Basically they’d amp up the % scaling behind the scenes for uniquely slow weapons, and reduce the % scaling for uniquely fast ones. This was why some blue & green weapons (daggers with 2.0 swing speed and such) were actually better than epic items. And also why Hemo became absolutely nightmarish with that Spare Part mace from Naxx.

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Listen to Hallington. He gave an extremely thorough response and is 100% correct.

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I get your point for an offhand in PVE against raid bosses, the speed not mattering because of the debuff limit.

But why would it not matter for PVP? Quicker poison application would be helpful in that circumstance wouldn’t it?

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You don’t pvp as combat.

Combat swords (because there were only swords) could pvp with AR + BF up. With those two you could 2v1 two melee with laughable ease, and even 3v1 4v1 depending on gear / luck / ect. However that’s with a freaking 5 minute cooldown and a two minute cooldown, against enemies who stand virtually ontop of eachother. Without those cooldowns combat was absolute booty at pvp.

Basically, you wanted a slow off-hand because it hit harder. Back in classic players had substantial avoidance (rogues generally had 25% ish dodge, +5% parry), and miss was actually a thing. A chunky 300-400 damage crit / double hit from a slow off-hand sword was much more powerful than an extra 80-ish damage from instant poison. Especially when that poison had BONUS chance to be resisted / miss, ontop of the already punishing off-hand hit mechanics.

And if combat swords was booty in pvp, combat daggers was the hair between the cheeks. It was one of the worst pvp specs in the game; and that’s saying something.

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So you want a fast MH slow OH?

No you want two slow weapons but you can just use your offhand as a stat stick pretty much

I’d imagine the difference would be pretty negligible though and won’t make a game breaking difference if you’re just sticking the highest dps weapon with good stats in the offhand

Excuse me Hall, I currently don’t know which one is best for OH
Vanquisher Sword: 46-86 Damage. Speed: 2.20. DPS:30.0. Equip: +28 Attack power or
Blade of Reckoning: 60-112 Damage. Speed: 2.40. DPS: 35.8. Equip: +22 Attack power

Blade of Reckoning is a 1 damage loss for me. Pls man

Quick question, why would a slower offhand lead to more double hits from Sword Specialization? Wouldn’t quicker/more hits lead to a better chance of getting that double hit?

Clearly the best offhand would be book of the dead.

Buying the Butcher is kind of a waste considering how many good swords are available for free.

Not meaning to argue, but I don’t see any case why a slow OH is better from your post.

Poison is a flat % chance, not procs per minute like some abilities. The poisons may not be a great source of DPS, but for min maxing this points to a fast offhand being better.

You also go on to mention that the 5% chance to proc an extra attack massively outweighs poisons damage. Between a 1.8 and 2.7 speed weapon you’re looking at 50% more procs triggered from your offhand attacks. Assuming you procced your offhand weapon damage this wouldnt matter and would average out, but these procs actually trigger the MAIN HAND attack, which again points to slow MH + fast OH.

You also mention that speed is more important than DPS on the MH in your edit. We live in a post normalization world in classic, so TOPEND is the ultimate winner here (which is usually higher DPS).

On the Naxx mace being nightmarish, weapon normalization for melee was added in 1.8 (hunters in 1.10). Naxx was released in 1.11, so it wasn’t getting the added multiplier for weapon speed–it was just an insanely hard hitting weapon.

Because there is no case for a slow OH. Assuming the same DPS, a fast OH is superior for the reasons you mention.

Hallinton is misinformed.

I may be wrong here but I’m pretty sure that Instant Poison has a PPM mechanic.

All specs have a classic discussion discord. Find the rogue classic discord and read up the guides posted there. Don’t rely on forums for this type of stuff.

So are you saying MH should be just best DPS as this is post normalization? Or still go with highest damage?

If you have a significantly higher DPS weapon, but lower topend you may want to just use it. But given similar DPS (cutoff is probably between 5-10%) you’ll want to run the mainhand with higher topend.

Awesome thanks!