Classic WoW is bigger and more important than Naxxramas, sure it may be your personal goal to raid Naxx, but it does not matter in the grand scheme of things.
"Naxxramas is the hard content; do that" is a common response that some people make regarding re-tuning raids because originally all the raids were at least reasonably challenging at their original state of overall game tune.
That original difficulty reduced over time with patch progression; some raids were nerfed directly while others were nerfed indirectly with character updates and debuff limit expansion.
It's my intent to un-nerf all pre-naxx raids, dungeons and NPC's to a state that plays as they did when these NPC's, Bosses and Raid encounters were new for their day.
Why do I bring this up? Because PVE content is fun and all of it should be fun and reasonably challenging; not just the last raid tier.
Why is that important? Because it gives longevity to the server, and the game overall. This longevity can only exist when the content is not transitory in nature like it is under raw 1.12 conditions.
So how do you mimic that original authentic raid experience before Naxxramas?
Increase NPC / Boss health pools to counteract the massive increase in power to the classes.
Increase damage output of NPC / Boss in both direct and raid wide / group wide damage so that healers and caster DPS are pressured for mana again rather than being allowed to focus directly into offensive (+damage / +healing) stats, meaning we will now need to focus on longevity stats again like the pre-naxx era where MP5, Spirit and *Resistance* stats were king for casters and healers.
Revert back to pre-naxx threat management kits; this way tank threat is limited, and DPS classes are also limited by threat; this drastically improves the state of game play for not only non-pure DPS but puts the hunter DPS class back at the top of the leader board where it should be.
TBH I'm kinda sad that we'll never get the chance to experience pre-nerf Scholo again.
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11/07/2018 12:32 PMPosted by MayvasTBH I'm kinda sad that we'll never get the chance to experience pre-nerf Scholo again.
Modern players would likely cry them selves to sleep if they did OG Scholomance and Stratholm, they were legitimately challenging.
When you bring this up there is an unavoidable guy who chimes in with "you're excluding people" meanwhile the same guy posts "Vanilla was easy".
Regarding the Dungeons.
For those of you who did not get to play before Diremaul, there were versions of Stratholm and Scholomance. (this discussion is not limited to just Stratholm and Scholomance, but using them only as an example.)
Version 1: Pre-Diremaul Scholomance & Stratholm. This version has no player cap and was tuned for 5 players (so they say). This version has far more NPC's (trash mobs), and the mobs hit harder with more spell frequency in some cases.
Version 2: Post-Diremaul Scholomance & Stratholm. This version has a 10 player cap, but it's tuned for 5 players (most people played this version or the next).
Version 3: Dungeon set 2 Update version This version is similar to the Post Diremaul version, its Tuned for 5 players and has a 5 player cap. This version also has the quest capability for Dungeon set 2.
What is your favorite version? Did you get to play them all? Each has its perks, each is very fun; I preference a "Franken patch" approach to this situation because the first and last version are really fun.
IMO the Pre-Diremaul version should be default on "Zone in", while the Dungeon set 2 version could be unlocked at the correct time assuming you have the appropriate quest active upon zone-in; this way both versions are there so that players can progress though the content in an organic way and experience the full spectrum of Vanilla WoW dungeons.
Some of you may also be aware that the early versions had different loot; this discussion is not about the loot, just the dungeon and the experience of it. The loot is a totally different issue that's not just a problem for dungeons, but raids and reputation rewards, quests and so on.
Patch notes included to illuminate the changes a little more in depth. This is only patch 1.3, you can find a whole swath of nerfs and some buffs to diremaul in later patches, this however is only the beginning of the nerfs to the original content to "tone it down" because some considered it too hard.
Stratholme
Scholomance
Blackrock Spire
Blackrock Depths
Maraudon
Zul'Farrak
Scarlet Monastery
Gnomeregan
Deadmines
tier two and beyond was fine in 1.12, MC sure as heck is not the point for me
Well good luck with that venture.
Seeing how the demo turned out we'll be lucky if we see a game with authentic 1.12 gameplay never mind additional tuning.
The demo is after 2 years of development work.
Every expansion change post vanilla showed up in that demo in one way or another.
and they think it will be polished in 9 months.
You just might end up with the level 100 version of MC :)
Seeing how the demo turned out we'll be lucky if we see a game with authentic 1.12 gameplay never mind additional tuning.
The demo is after 2 years of development work.
Every expansion change post vanilla showed up in that demo in one way or another.
and they think it will be polished in 9 months.
You just might end up with the level 100 version of MC :)
the server will have longevity because they are not even releasing naxx right away. im bummed it wont even have bgs for a while
why isnt naxx the point though, it was the best raid in the game. MC sucked in every patch tbh, bwl and AQ were fine in 1.12 if not super difficult
why isnt naxx the point though, it was the best raid in the game. MC sucked in every patch tbh, bwl and AQ were fine in 1.12 if not super difficult
11/07/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Zionfisttier two and beyond was fine in 1.12, MC sure as heck is not the point for me
It should be prerequisite to BWL tho, and it should be challenging because even though you may not personally enjoy MC, there are those people who never raided it or who do enjoy it as it was.
If you personally dislike that raid you could always side step it with some of the PVP epics that can be faction farmed in AV, AB, WSG, and the PVP blues and crafted epics that will get you buy into BWL where you can enjoy your self. There are other ways, but it's unfair to spoil the experience for others.
11/07/2018 12:43 PMPosted by BrockthornThe demo is after 2 years of development work.
Where are you getting 2 years from? They announced the project in November last year, and did not even start working on it right away.
I'm not sure I'm convinced that MC is really that easy in 1.12.
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
11/07/2018 12:46 PMPosted by Härländ11/07/2018 12:43 PMPosted by BrockthornThe demo is after 2 years of development work.
Where are you getting 2 years from? They announced the project in November last year, and did not even start working on it right away.
The developer interview. I've worked in software development before.
Public announcements don't happen before projects start.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=288412/blizzcon-2018-wow-classic-interview-with-brian-birmingham-and-john-hight
When did the entire project start?
JH: About two years ago.
11/07/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Brockthorn11/07/2018 12:46 PMPosted by Härländ...
Where are you getting 2 years from? They announced the project in November last year, and did not even start working on it right away.
The developer interview. I've worked in software development before.
Public announcements don't happen before projects start.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=288412/blizzcon-2018-wow-classic-interview-with-brian-birmingham-and-john-hight
When did the entire project start?
JH: About two years ago.
Their in house private server is not the same as the version they are building now; its important to remember that we're talking specifically about the actual version they are building right now.
As for your concern about the Wrath, TBC, Cata, MoP WoD and Legion features you saw on the demo; they are going to be removed.
11/07/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Härländ11/07/2018 12:54 PMPosted by Brockthorn...
The developer interview. I've worked in software development before.
Public announcements don't happen before projects start.
https://www.wowhead.com/news=288412/blizzcon-2018-wow-classic-interview-with-brian-birmingham-and-john-hight
When did the entire project start?
JH: About two years ago.
Their in house private server is not the same as the version they are building now; its important to remember that we're talking specifically about the actual version they are building right now.
As for your concern about the Wrath, TBC, Cata, MoP WoD and Legion features you saw on the demo; they are going to be removed.
They never said it was their in-house private server.
The project..wow-classic started in 2016.
The announce was 2017.
The demo is 2018.
11/07/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Härländ11/07/2018 12:39 PMPosted by Zionfisttier two and beyond was fine in 1.12, MC sure as heck is not the point for me
If you personally dislike that raid you could always side step it with some of the PVP epics that can be faction farmed in AV, AB, WSG, and the PVP blues and crafted epics that will get you buy into BWL where you can enjoy your self. There are other ways, but it's unfair to spoil the experience for others.
Literally the dumbest thing you've said on these forums. Why would raiders spend months grinding BG's to get gear they could easily get in MC? MC is an entry level raid, it's not supposed to be hard in 1.12 beyond 40 dungeon geared people playing with basic game knowledge.
I agree, OP. Classic is not about Naxx. It is not about raiding. It is not about PvP. It is not about leveling. It is not about professions. It is not about exploring. It is about whatever a player makes it about. And because every one of the topics I just listed was given full creative energy by Blizzard in Vanilla, Vanilla appealed to everyone. Hyperfocusing on, or tuning the game for, only one thing will ruin the game, just like Retail has been ruined.
Classic is about the world of Warcraft.
Classic is about the world of Warcraft.
11/07/2018 12:52 PMPosted by DeallocI'm not sure I'm convinced that MC is really that easy in 1.12.
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
Good points, I was addressing the point that post Naxx you were able to gear in a very different way because the fight duration was far shorter; not because the boss was directly nerfed, but because we could churn out way more damage than before naxx.
Because of this you can get away with some really ridiculous stuff; like stacking +spell damage instead of MP5, Spirit, or "resist" because those stats before Naxx were actually very key to completing MC / BWL / AQ. Before Naxx if you did not have sustainability gear your raid would OOM and it was a wipe.
The whole dynamic of gearing changed in 1.11, and not for the better; it became more like PVP gearing than PVE gearing; it was homogenization in gear just by the simple means of warrior tanks being able to produce that much more threat than they could before they got buffed.
11/07/2018 01:03 PMPosted by Wyldleaf11/07/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Härländ...
If you personally dislike that raid you could always side step it with some of the PVP epics that can be faction farmed in AV, AB, WSG, and the PVP blues and crafted epics that will get you buy into BWL where you can enjoy your self. There are other ways, but it's unfair to spoil the experience for others.
Literally the dumbest thing you've said on these forums. Why would raiders spend months grinding BG's to get gear they could easily get in MC? MC is an entry level raid, it's not supposed to be hard in 1.12 beyond 40 dungeon geared people playing with basic game knowledge.
If you knew anything about Zionfist you would know that he despises MC, I was giving him a work around for his loathing hate. Feel free to continue to make it about Naxx tho, because that's what it really is.. Heck you elude to it.
11/07/2018 01:03 PMPosted by WyldleafMC is an entry level raid, it's not supposed to be hard in 1.12 beyond 40 dungeon geared people playing with basic game knowledge.
This just shows you don't really care about the content at all, the only thing that matters is loot and getting to naxx. Been there done that friend, and your attitude is partly why we have BFA in the stat it's in.
11/07/2018 01:07 PMPosted by Härländ11/07/2018 12:52 PMPosted by DeallocI'm not sure I'm convinced that MC is really that easy in 1.12.
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
Good points, I was addressing the point that post Naxx you were able to gear in a very different way because the fight duration was far shorter; not because the boss was directly nerfed, but because we could churn out way more damage than before naxx.
Because of this you can get away with some really ridiculous stuff; like stacking +spell damage instead of MP5, Spirit, or "resist" because those stats before Naxx were actually very key to completing MC / BWL / AQ. Before Naxx if you did not have sustainability gear your raid would OOM and it was a wipe.
The whole dynamic of gearing changed in 1.11, and not for the better; it became more like PVP gearing than PVE gearing; it was homogenization in gear just by the simple means of warrior tanks being able to produce that much more threat than they could before they got buffed.
Yeah I really don't know enough to say whether or not MC is too easy or not in 1.12. I can't remember exactly what patch it was when I first cleared MC, but the raid had some people in t2 gear.
Before that I remember being in a raiding guild which wasn't geared beyond some t1 gear. I can't remember exactly how far we got in MC, but I remember struggling on Lucifron. We probably got at least through Garr. Again, really hard to remember. This was like 13 years ago lol.
Anyways, let's say 1.12 does make MC too easy. It seems like Blizzard may not actually have a data backup from 1.1 or other earlier patches. Maybe they do? But from what I heard from Blizzcon it seemed like the earliest data backup they had was from 1.12.
If that's the case, do we really want Blizzard manually tuning old raids?
11/07/2018 01:31 PMPosted by DeallocIf that's the case, do we really want Blizzard manually tuning old raids?
Surprisingly this is something Blizzard is really good at. Now days they very rarely make mistakes regarding PVE instance tuning so it's actually one area I do trust them to get it right.
What's important is to know how long each phase is suppose to take, how long the whole encounter is suppose to take, and then you can tune it to those spec's being they're the original figures. The boss health pool and damage output is kinda meaningless, in that the original 1.1.0 figures or those from 1.2 / 1.3 would not be functional for the situation because 16 debuff slots and 1.12 characters bring a lot more damage / healing / tanking potential to the dungeon or raid.
No... classes are doing +100% damage on average... due to talent and threat changes.11/07/2018 12:52 PMPosted by DeallocI'm not sure I'm convinced that MC is really that easy in 1.12.
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
People can one phase Rag with lvl 58s...
11/07/2018 01:39 PMPosted by TundrenNo... classes are doing +100% damage on average... due to talent and threat changes.11/07/2018 12:52 PMPosted by DeallocI'm not sure I'm convinced that MC is really that easy in 1.12.
How do people know that it didn't just seem easier in original vanilla 1.12 because of more widespread knowledge of fights and better gear?
And if we're using private servers as a reference, how do we know their tuning is accurate?
People can one phase Rag with lvl 58s...
I find that very hard to believe. There's no way this happened in vanilla. That sounds like a poorly tuned private server.
Do you have proof this happened in actual vanilla?