Mythic + toxicity killing best social aspects of the game

Gameplay Dungeons, Raids and Scenarios
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There are many people point out that Mythic dungeons are just too punishing and no they are not looking for instant gratification. I think Blizzard has forgotten the fact that their player base is no longer a teenager with no commitments or time constraints. Mythic dungeons created a way for players who do not have the time to raid to acquire top level gear. Now, mythics are so difficult, that you have to invest an inordinate amount of time and expertise to progress with them. Even this would not be a problem except for the fact that everyone in the group has to be at this level to beat the timer. This is where the toxicity comes in. People are excluded from enjoying these team activities together simply because of their inability to successfully navigate these extraordinarily difficult mechanics. In addition, because these mechanics require immediate movement and in the right direction, any class mechanic that requires standing in place to complete an action or is hobbled by inadequate movement options puts the entire team at a disadvantage. No, this doesn’t just happen in PUG groups but also in guilds where there is a stratification of skills and item levels. People become excluded and this just kills any incentive to play. Do you really think that people who love the social aspect of the game are going to say, Oh no one wants to group with me I guess I’ll go herbing? No, they are just going to quit playing. WoW will become small groups of highly skilled group players, solo players and pvp’rs and never shall the 3 interact. No matter what content you come up with, this is a recipe for a slow painful death. On top of it, it’s just straight up lazy game design. Here are some suggestions:
a) lose the timer. Everyone already wants to complete it as quickly as possible. With no timer, you give the opportunity to interact during the run. This provides the opportunity for mentoring, which most players would love to be able to provide or receive.
b) add different mechanics other than “MOVE YOUR ESS NOW OR YOU WILL DIE!!!” FFS
c) allow class fantasy to succeed in every dungeon. If you want to insist on dodging swirlies, make sure every class can do so as easily and as often as Demon Hunters
d) create a gear ilvl lock for tiers and make those ilvls easily obtained. Make certain there are no gaps in the ability to acquire that gear. Sure, it can be slower to obtain higher level gear, but not impossible or so slow as to be effectively so.
e) provide a material benefit for mentoring. If you are at a much higher ilvl than the key allows; provide some token of appreciation like role rewards currently
f) listen to people other than the 3% top level dungeon teams and when they say something is too difficult, believe them

One of my guild members recently said something brilliant. “Healing was too much fun in Dragon Flight so Blizzard fixed it.” Stop doing that. Thanks for reading.

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Except that large majority of complaints we see here on the forums goes back to them looking for instant gratification. What else do you call the overwhelming complaining at the start of the season that players couldn’t jump straight into +10 keys for vault or saying +9s for Gilded crests was too hard? On week 1 and 2. These are players who never got to +20 keys in the past on the first or second week especially not on previous season 1s.

Context matters and it’s a fact that most of them feel entitled to skipping content progression.

This is the main reason I enjoy M+. I can jump into a key when I want with who I want. No schedule or commitment. This is still true for this season. You don’t need to spend an “inordinate amount of time” to be successful. You can do well by just playing at your own pace with a season that runs for ~6 months.

This goes back to instant gratification.

It’s not toxic to not get invited. That’s a ridiculous argument. If you are failing to progress because you can’t overcome the mechanics or the tuning then you are playing at your level. Either stay there or get better and move up. That’s how progression works. Not everyone is meant to get to the top of the ladder. The entire purpose of M+ having infinite levels is so every player has a “home” where their skill is met with challenge.

No. The timer is the major component that separates M+ from Raids. It directly adds to the difficulty that makes it so difficulty doesn’t rely purely from tuning like in raids. We don’t need dungeons to turn into 5 man raids with waiting on CDs for every pull or boss.

Every class can succeed in every dungeon. This comes down to skill.

Why would they listen to the people I listed above who were complaining about the difficulty when they never did the equivalent keys in the past? Why would they listen to players who barely touch M+ and quite frankly some don’t even participate in it at all?

This is hilarious because DF was notorious for having the worst healing checks in the past 3 expansions.

It’s clear that you are another person who listens to anecdotes of those around you and taking them all in at face value.

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A fair point.

I’ll be honest. My overall DPS isn’t that great, but I’m generally decent at not eating mechanics, and have what seems like a good percentage use of my interrupts/hard CC when I look at post game meters versus others.

So I will say that I think average-good players can get 99% of rewards from M+. Next season with a mount at 2850? Probably not (and I highly support there being something top players who still fall below R1 can try for, that’s great for them).

However what I will also say, is you can’t really carry as well in TWW as you could in DF. The failure rate of keys seems to have went up quite a bit, and I agree with you, that’s hurting the bottom line in lower-mid keys.

You won’t get much support on this forum because there’s like 14 regular posters and 11 of them disagree with you, but I would rather see a more casual game than a dead one, personally. (While not necessarily agreeing with your change proposals)

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At what level? M0? M+2? M+10? M+20? Please be more specific.

This eliminates most of the challenge.

There are already lots of other mechanics.

Everything in M+ is equally avoidable.

What does this mean?

It’s nobody’s job to mentor other players during their recreational time. If players choose to help out that’s great, but it shouldn’t be viewed as an obligation or expectation.

I can’t help but feel like most of your problems can be solved by doing M+ only up to the level where you are having fun and not push into the key levels where you’re finding frustration.

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You are a 622 Hunter mad that keys are too hard. Your io is 611 and youre 2/8 Normal. Your highest key is a +4. Any difficulty you may have progressing is whole heartedly on you. Read some guides, learn your rotation, get accustomed to the mechanics. You will not be progressing otherwise. This is the same thing i was told when i first started in Legion and wondered why no one would take me for seemingly easy stuff.

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If the content you are doing is too difficult for you then do the lower content that isn’t. How hard of a concept is this for people to understand?

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I hope you appreciate the irony of your comment in the context of the thread title.

I’m sure he appreciates that you proved his point, in his thread, just to drive home the reality of his message.

Your only contribution is “get in your place and eat your slop.”

Quality interaction.

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No its not. Its do the content designed for you and your skill level. You can get myth track ilvl gear doing any level of content even world quests.

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This is probably (along with key depletion and dungeon design) the worst part of being a m+ enjoyer and pusher right now. Title is not my goal, I like to do m+ to meet people and yap and blast keys. Not everyone is like that I know. But sitting in lfg for 2 hours on average just to get into a key or wasting all my time after work having my key got 16=>15=>14=>13=>14=>13=>12=>14=>13 for no io is just a bogus waste of time. This is why nobody wants to run their own keys until they get tired of lfg wait times. It’s not just costly for time, it’s extremely costly for gold.

I’m one of those people that hates raiding. Like I do it for the unique reward and after I get the thing I want I will literally never go back. Got queen ring and wings and never went back. The reason mostly being that raid is a huge time investment for possibly no rewards at all. M+ is a lot of fun where I used to feel like i had a lot of personal agency and could do challenging content. Like after i get home from work and finally get to sit down on the game I don’t want to sit in raid qeue to prog bosses for hours as people come and go, so we have to wait for more people to continue, then go to sleep and go back to work without having done the stuff I wanted to, because I had to raid.

So when I want to play mythic+ for nothing, long qeue times, the homework mini game nobody likes, and on and on, I kind of have to wonder why am I flying around farming ore or sitting in dornogol doing crafting orders for hours to get into a key, so that when that top 1% key depletes I have to go back to dorn and do it all over again? Like really think about it I pay to play the game but I’m not getting to play the game?

There’s a healer and tank shortage? I applied to keys all day don’t tell me that nonsense there’s healers and tanks most hours of the day but nobody wants to deplete and nobody wants to take anything less than exodia meta pick.

And you’re right the toxicity is at an all time high. If you get into a key and so much as crack a “druid walks into a bar” joke you might get removed from group because you’re not super serious hardcore like them. One time when something like this happened the druid or mage idr some caster whispered me “we died on the first pull 3 times and left lol” and hey you know I don’t feel bad for em.

And another time i was in a key and the tank was drawing on his mdt map and the dps were practically yelling at him while he said he needed more time. So they kicked him from the group and told him to get lost after wasting his time to come there. Then they cracked jokes in /p. I left party and whispered the tank and we did his key instaed, because I don’t wanna play with people like that.

I get it, nobody is happy with this season. Nobody happy with depletion, challengers peril, the dungeon design, the waste of time, the meta, etc, but something yall need to realize is that we all have to share this game together and play together. Especially in the top 1% of keys you’re gonna play with the same people a lot. You’re gonna see the same names all the time. You have to get along and sometimes it’s just better to say “gg nt” instead of flipping out on someone.

We all feel that way sometimes, believe me I know it. Bad days happen. But if you say some of that stuff I’ve read that goes way too far, I’m gonna report it. And people remember that stuff. And any time lately i’ve tried to give critcism sometimes I’ve realized after the fact how it could be interpreted in text as just being negative, so I try to be a little more careful with my words. People remember that stuff. There’s a dh that no matter how bad I want that key if the lead takes him I will leave. And trust me next season if mw is meta some yall that said some mean things like “why do people even play mist weaver, you’re trolling” when I see your name in lfg next season you’re getting declined man. I take guardian druids, brew monks, idc as long as they’re good and chill or fun, then that’s all I care about. My favorite tank to play with rn is a brew master we get up to some wild stuff with double RoP plays, it’s tons of fun. I don’t even care if we time it. Edit: I don’t care if we time it when I play with friends* I’m not afk brain in random people’s keys

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Basically, you play the way the game was meant to be played.

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Hey that’s the one upside of being a yapper it might not get you a lot of love but sometimes you’ll connect with someone that digs it and laughs at your jokes, so you add them, then you can run keys together and this whole thing is a lot less stressful and a lot more fun. I actually need to clear out my friend list cause it’s gotten up to 200 people and there’s a loooooot of people that always want a healer for their homework key that don’t wanna take you to a push key or help with your homework. You know what I’m saying?

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No, that isn’t what he said at all. The paraphrase might be more accurately expressed, “If you’re not having fun with the higher challenge, stop at whichever level was the last one you enjoyed.”

That type of comment isn’t antisocial or toxic at all. People need to stop doing content they hate just because they think they need the highest rewards.

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There’s so much depth that you guys don’t understand. It’s not simple, because it’s human psychology, but I assure you what is being presented to the OP is not taken as any sort of advice or consolation.

It’s just karen-quality psychological ignorance.

It isn’t adding anything the OP hasn’t heard a million times, dismisses the (admittedly hard-to-read) actual complaint, which is that the player doesn’t find the risk/reward ratio of the content to their liking and leaves them feeling left-out or disillusioned.

You don’t have to agree with their position, but if you guys had more actual understanding of the human condition you’d at least be closer to the mark with your replies.

Incredibly, it’s the clowns who cry (I use that word purposefully) about other players just wanting access to better gear, that are the closer to the truth with their responses, although invariably they accuse players of wanting it free, which is often untrue.

Ultimately, the success of this game is wrapped up in its ability to make its players feel accomplished and rewarded. Clearly, there are players who will never be satisfied, but more often than not the players who complain are genuine lovers of the game who find the system doesn’t work for them.

It’s not your place to tell them how to engage. If you were being sincere you’d offer them advice beyond get back in your lane.

Here’s the crux of the situation: The upper portion of the M+ community, probably in the 5-15th percentile use their achievements and gear to feel good about themselves relative to other players. Above that players are mostly satisfied to let their achievements do the talking. They will wear lower ilvl give it’s better and will likely never complain about another player’s rewards unless it’s perhaps they see someone with a trinket they don’t have after 50 runs, and even then their complaint is about the system, not the individual.

Those players are basically the only reason that gear is precious. So those half-decent-but-not-really players, who lean on possessions to prop up their egos. The players at the top can humble you with a title, they don’t care if gear is precious, only that it’s fun to obtain and doesn’t feel bad to use.

So the end result is that lots of players who just want to have a bit of fun at the end of the day are gate-kept out of mostly irrelevant loot just to protect the ego of a bunch of barely above average wannabes.

Let me just pre-empt Fauxstarsza here: “I just want harder content to reward better gear.”

Of course you do, because you don’t understand the fragile nature of your own ego, or are unwilling to deal with the reality that you need things, trinkets (in the common usage) to make you feel more special than others.

And in order to feel special you are willing to sacrifice other people’s satisfaction.

It’s fragile egos all the way down, and up, I’m sure, too.

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As he should. The solution is for him to get better, not for the difficulty to be reduced.

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“Our customers should be willing to do whatever it takes to find the fun in our game. We will accept no responsibility for the feelings.”

~Concord dev’s, probably.

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The problem with that argument is that the reward part can be obtained by doing any level of content. Again you can do world content only and have myth track ilvl gear the system is designed so that everyone can have the special toys.

Again I point out they too have the access to said gear from doing any form of content what we care about it is the frequency of it and it becoming another legion experience all over again “better do all the raids and all the WQ’s cause this one random trinket or boots from a previous tier has better stat weights if it TF high enough”.

thats not what I said at all as others pointed out to you.

again no they are not they have access to myth track ilvl gear doing any level of content.

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I need you to elaborate because I cannot find a correct statement in that comment.

It sounds like you’re suggesting that doing +2 afford access to myth track gear, which I’m sure is not what you meant.

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its exactly what I meant. You get your champion level gear and the crests to upgrade them. You upgrade that up and you get an achievement to turn those crests into the tier higher allowing you craft hero track gear. Once you have done that you get another achievement allowing you to upgrade your crests again to turn that hero crafted gear into myth track crafted gear. Do you not know this?

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Sweet baby Jesus, Odysseus had a shorter journey than that.

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I’m not even going to bother touching your disingenuous, out-of-touch, dogmeat take.

Nothing I am saying will stop dbag elitism, or is likely to affect change so I’d be the fool trying just to get you to argue reasonably.

You have made your point, I have made mine. Good luck.