I’ve seen so many people arguing against Death Counters or against Timers in Mythic+.
My question is a simple one, why not incorporate both and let players choose how they want to navigate the dungeon? What this looks like in practice would be that the only way to fail a key would be if you both exceeded the death counter AND a timer.
If you want to pull slow and execute perfect CC, that is a legitimate way to play the game. If you want to AOE pull and expertly use cooldowns and kiting - that too is a valid way to play.
You can keep your leaderboards. Literally nothing changes. You simply add the ability to also clear a key by going slow and not dying. Why is this problematic?
It’s not a legitimate way to play M+. Even being able to do that means it’s significantly easier than the timer counterpart while rewarding the same loot. How can you justify pulling 1 pack at a time and waiting for full CDs on bosses giving the same rewards as someone doing multi-pulls and beating the timer?
They have been asking through surveys if this is something players might want.
I think that this would be more interesting than a timer. There, someone had to say it.
I can certainly see a death counter removing some of the stress and put more onus on each individual to “play correctly” instead of the biggest load falling on the tanks and healers.
I also think removing the timer and doing a death counter allows players with ramp-up to finally get invited. Yes, I realize that smarter players dont always want meta, but the biggest complaint in here about the LFG tool to create these is is that people often only want meta and non-meta specs either never get in groups or get very little progess done each week.
The design of Mythic+ from the get go was oriented towards speed clearing but that isn’t content that everyone wants to play. Why not allow me to play increasingly difficult content in my own way. The scaling of the bosses in the dungeon are going to be the limiting factor eventually anyways.
There is usually no reward for clearing a raid in a faster overall time from start to finish, why should a dungeon be any different?
At this point any comment about X getting the same loot as Y is kind of irrelevant with all of the systems and gearing/upgrade paths available in WoW.
Keep an achievement for timing all keys in the game if you really feel the need to differentiate.
I don’t see a drawback to adding an additional failure condition like this and allowing people to bypass the timer and opt for slower more traditional dungeon experience. It doesn’t hurt anyone. Dungeons bosses on +20 are still hard.
This design decision was made based on the popularity of the vast majority of players already trying to do dungeons as fast a possible since Vanilla all the way up to Legion. They made a design for a target audience.
You are not part of the target audience.
This doesn’t mean the game should cater to you, it means you should find a game made for you.
Because dungeons were always different. They were never on a weekly lockout, raids are, why is this different? Because they are different content and there’s no reason to expect both to be the same, if they were the same they would cannibalize each other and one would become obsolete just like how M+ that gave the same rewards as delves became obsolete until it was high enough to give better gear. Same cannibalizing would happen with 2 different types of M+, people would farm on timer, and progress on death counter because death counter is way easier and more easily exploitable. As we all know exploits are bad, so the game is better without that.
I’m literally asking what the drawbacks are to allowing both gameplay loops as I don’t see them. This is not a request to be catered to. I’ve played the game long enough to remember when there was no Mythic+ and dungeons would just be hard early on because of a lack of gear and you cleared them slowly to compensate and had no timer breathing down your throat. I believe WoW got off course with M+ and it alienates a lot more people than you think, especially on the more casual side.
Time is still a large factor. To me it is very similar to raids that are put together that require you to have killed all the bosses already vs a learning group. These activities don’t cannibalize each other. If you want to get in and out quickly, you will chase the timer/require people who have done it already. Having an opportunity to learn the trash packs and get a feel for the dungeon where you won’t focus on the time should be welcomed. What the heck are we talking about exploits? Spending 5 minutes waiting for a cooldown is not an exploit…
My interpretation of your post was that you were hung up on difficulty and corresponding rewards. I honestly don’t see this perceived huge gap in difficulty. Is it harder to do something faster? Yes. So much so that we need to distinguish rewards? No. In nearly all other forms of content you get the reward for clearing the content…period. Mythic+ is the outlier. Let the bosses scale up high enough to where they become the problem. I think the game would benefit from allow people to experience a dungeon in a slower more deliberate pace.
The other complaint I saw is that this would cannibalize the existing Mythic+ player base. I think it would actually encourage more people to participate in Mythic+, resulting in a net positive.
Again - the idea was to find a way to incorporate both gameplay loops. Infinitely scaling content works whether there is a timer or not.
I can only speak for myself and the people I play with. M+ is the main draw of the game for me and if the timer was removed I wouldn’t play anymore. This would be unfortunate because I think this is the best game mode ever created. You have the freedom to have your preference of course, I just think it is an awful idea that would essentially ruin something amazing that was created and ultimately kill the game.
You seriously can’t see this huge difficulty gap in being able to pull 1 pack at a time with full CDs if needed compared to being on a timer? Lmao. Can’t be any more disingenuous.
rid, just put little miss soy sauce on ignore, all she ever does is troll hard and argue. Not worth replying to.
i hope they go somewhere with the death counter, or hell…make it a choice.
“do we want to do this with a timer or a death counter?”
that would be fun and it would allow me to do more keys with my guild since they all hate the timer.