Nah just use leagues other features. Only grouped with other leavers for x amount of keys completed
No chance sitting in a 2-hour event with strangers who do not follow the mechanics or just a bad comp who will not complete the dungeon.
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Hell, I’m a warrior. I don’t even have big CC to deal with them and still it’s not hard to kick at 6, and storm bolt at 6. Mind you, if I’m having to do that, the other 3 non tank players done eff’d up.
A forfeit penalty system is fine IF it is ONLY applied at a range that holds zero meaningful rating impact.
With the current iteration of M+ holding 2k rating to be paired with a reward, and as you can reach this rating with timed 13s, then a FF system is actively detrimental to anything above a 12 key, and this should only be applied at the +2 to +12 range.
But this range also makes sense to use for a variety of reasons. First, why not 13+? Well having a rating-based reward in a time-based activity means that a time-based FF system is penalizing players who actively understand the key and the timer and the content lane, and THAT flies in the face of what Mythic+ is all about to begin with.
The higher you scale up, the less gear becomes the focus and the more timing the key for score becomes the focus, to which your proposed FF system actively penalized someone for (rightfully) dipping out of a busted key. The penalty for such players is staying in a bricked key, and incurring a stacking penalty on repeat players in this manner means that you are actively penalizing the players who are playing the content lane FOR the content lane; that is ALWAYS a no-no for design. Instead, you kill the content lane off for PUGs seeking to climb.
If you make the penalty per account, you have the same issue; you’re punishing the players who are playing the lane as designed AND those players are what keeps the lane alive and healthy, even with the douse of vinegar mixed in. For better. For worse.
So you could try to go character level, but those same players often are already playing on alts because they understand and enjoy the content lane; they’ll just cycle toons to avoid it, much like they already do with current systems as needed.
Okay, so it’s apparent that there is SOME range at which this FF system isn’t helpful, but shoots M+ in the foot. But for sake of fairness, where should that line get drawn? We can probably all agree that dipping out on a baby key such as the +2/+5 range is silly, though they can all be 3 manned to completion of completion is the goal. In fact, you can 3 man most of this season up to around the +10 level without more gear than appropriate.
If completing a busted key is the goal, you’re not really out anything at a 10 or lower, with two notable exceptions; more on that below.
Thus, while a FF system could deter some behavior in the baby key range, you also don’t need it for the sake of completion in that range.
So what about the low key range, 11-15? A mix of timed and untimed 14s and 15s, or solidly timed 13s yields KSM with a paired rating reward, which means that playing around the rating system isn’t just smart for those players leaving, and isn’t just the often correct way to spend their times but that playing into and around the rating system is INTENDED behavior. Punishing players for intended behavior is and always will be a detriment to a community, whether those at lower skill levels like it or not. But what’s the benefit of a completion of a 13/14/15 for someone who’s actively not caring about rating on a rating-based content lane?
Well, for end of dungeon gear drops, these all drop the same upgrade range as 10/11/12s. Meaning that if you can only do 10s, you’ll be awarded the same effective GEAR, and if you can run 11s, the same effective upgrade resource. For Great Vault, these ALL drop Hero upgrade track gear, and thus hold no meaningful difference in rewards, either. For someone who doesn’t actively care about playing M+ the way it’s intended to play, such a player that’s doing completions just for completion rewards can just sit on +11 keys and only +11 keys and call it a day. There isn’t really a really to introduce an FF system for a +12, when any reason to support it would also apply to a +11, and the outcomes of a +11 would scope every basis down to just a +11. Thus, we can use the pigeonhole principle to establish that while we mentioned a +13 shouldn’t include it due to aligning with the content lane, that whether a +12 has it or not is inherently meaningless and therefore may as well not have it, making a +11 the highest meaningful point for such a system to matter.
So about the two cases for the +10s above? The first case is that you cannot complete these keys to completion without both a tank and a healer up to the +10 mark. However, only applying such a FF system to tanks/heals is only going to deter people from trying those roles, and that’s net negative to all. It’s far better for occasional key bricks due to a tank or healer leaving than to grind the whole system over punishing just these roles. As long as you have a tank/healer/DPS, EVERY key this season is completable for three players in appropriate gear at a +10. Note the “appropriate” portion here. If you have two DPS leave and the remaining three players do not have the GEAR to complete a 10 key, then those three players weren’t pulling their weight FIRST, and this whole thing effectively boils down into just asking for a CARRY or penalizing others for not wasting their time to do, for you, what you should have been doing for yourself. And THAT is not a good reason for a FF system, either, and will effectively just nuke stronger players from ever wanting to dip into lower keys for rating. That translates into longer fills, less skill cross-pollination, less learning, it stunts the critical growth portion of the system itself.
Okay, okay, so maybe you and three others ARE geared sufficiently…but not skilled enough to continue. And THAT follows the same suit, in that you have the OPPORTUNITY to do what you desire IF you are CARRIED, and again you want to punish others to waste their time to carry you, if this is your spot.
So maybe you are skilled enough and geared, and just can’t get it for some reason. Then you now need to be asking yourself what your goal is. If your goal is rating, why are you sticking around in a bricked key? If your goal is gear, why are you spinning your wheels for lesser rewards you may not see over just jumping into another key to get them faster? If you’re completing it for the pride of being down players, then why do you even care what others are doing?
None of the goals for such a player align with a FF system!
So who IS this system FOR?
This system is for a player that:
- Is not playing M+ as designed
- Is not playing at a level where gear matters more than personal play
- In groups that are undergeared or skills for the entry level content that DOES get completed with people leaving, and thus becomes someone seeking a carry
- Has no foresight to the negative consequences of such a FF system on the content lane, as a whole
- Does not align their game play time with their game goals. They are not only wasting the time of others, but often their own time as well.
If you cannot check off all of these boxes, you wouldn’t actually benefit from your proposed system in practice. And at that point, you’re effectively incurring a drag on the entire system for you to avoid improving your play and/or better spending your time towards your goals.
Ironically, this is also the thing about “leavers” that’s bothering you; they are aligning their game play time with their game goals.
While there may be reasons to punish a player who focuses their time properly, let’s consider the contrapositive here.
You effectively want to be REWARDED for NOT optimizing your time, aligning your goals, nor improving your play.
Regardless of whatever the other guy is doing, you are operating in a toxic mindset that undermines the integrity of an end game content. And in the case of M+, it is intended to be a content lane for people who do NOT hold your mindset.
Rather, consider the design of M+ and where M+ starts as a content lane. M+ is an ever scaling content lane where the intent of design is to always provide a top end challenge that will eventually outpace even BiS gear.
With that in mind, this is why anyone who plays M+ actively as a content lane typically holds the “M+ starts at KSM or KSH” mindset. Someone getting all of their timed 13/14/15/16s and in a solid set of gear is where the content lane starts, and everything prior to that is just the training wheels.
If you’re playing in the content range, you’re actively advocating something that flies in the face of the content itself.
If you’re playing in the 10 or under club, you’re actively advocating for a carry.
If you’re playing in the 11-15 range, that range is for LEARNING and PREPARING for the upcoming content end game. As such, one should also be learning that “leavers” aren’t this oddity that penalized a group. Instead of wasting the time of 5 players, they’re scoping the time waste to 4 players, with a chance at saving the time waste of more. As you get into higher keys, this becomes necessary. Why? Because you want to be in more keys faster, and that mindset benefits the community the most at that level, as it’s wasting less time overall.
In the 11 to 15 range, you SHOULD be learning to play and mirror the end game lane OR you should not be caring about what others are doing.
And if you aren’t learning in the learning range, but still caring that others are adhering to the years-established social behavior 5hst best aligns with goals of said content then…
…that merely means that you don’t enjoy mythic+.
You may enjoy elements of the content, but you don’t understand what the content is, nor understand why this behavior is often met positive for the system.
In fact the only time people leaving is an active detriment is when they wait until late into a key to dip out!
100% agree with op.