Mythic+ problems - a collection

For the last several years we’ve seen many minor improvements to the feature but many pain points still exist in varying relevance from player to player.

1. Depletion/Timer/Why is there no +0?
As far as I know your key used to start the dungeon gets reduced by 1 once the run starts. It stays that way when you go overtime. You get an upgraded (+1,2,3) version depending on your “in time” finish. Or in other words: 1 millisecond decides if it’s a +1 or -1 but a ±0 does not exist.
Why is there no “over time” time span (+20% or +25%?) that is reserved for a ±0 finish? At the same time given this option your key should not be depleted the moment the run starts, it just stays at ±0. If you go severely over time you should still get a depletion but as long as you abort before you reach that point your key should still stay on it’s level. You already invested the entire time until then for no reward so far, that is enough trade-off for still being able to have another attempt.
I don’t think you need rating adjustments here since people kinda know who clears in time and better.



2.Seasonal affixes: compounding on mechanical overload?
These extra affixes have been all over the place in terms of visuals, added mechanics, short & long-term impact on your performance and therefor enjoyment or displeasure.

  • Infested in the way it played out was a precursor to Inspiring, isolating a mob because it’s consequences are annoying. Inspiring is gone and nobody misses Infested.
  • Reaping was an AoE padding fest with some extra work for tank positioning but if you had a more exact mob counter/percentage overview you could deal with those extra mobs outside of a current pull or within if you wanted.
  • Beguiling felt like a roadblock simulator with 1 of the 3 possible mob versions literally being the Inspiring affix. Nobody misses this one either.
  • Awakened is probably GOATed at this point. The extra mobs did not interfere with your standard gameplay if you wanted to. You opted into these fights specifically. Using them well got you clear advantages for instance pathing. And if you wanted your run or especially the endboss to be hard that was up to your group’s choice.
  • Prideful was similar to Reaping. An extra addon for better trash overview was helping to optimise it. In general narrow corridors or rooms don’t work well with many affixes such as this one. It also was a trade-off for clearing the mob faster preventing high aura ticks or compounding all your CDs with this buff on the next pull.
  • Tormented turned out as a lesser version of Awakened. Extra mobs that would not interfere. You could ignore all the mobs (and time spend) to deal with extra effects on the last boss (for the entire fight this time). The anima buffs were permanent for the rest of the run so they were rather weak modifiers. Rather underwhelming and more of a spreadsheet decision.
  • Encrypted feels like a mix of Awakened and Prideful but the effects are weaker versions. The Awakened portals were permanent, the invisibility sprint was a one time skip for example.
  • Shrouded: Better than Tormented since you had more fitting choices. No extra mobs on top and in 1 or 2 spots you’d actually want to dodge/skip the elite spawn.

Thundering:

  • An extra Swirlie effect on top of other Swirlie effects given by other affixes or general dungeon design.
  • An audio queue that mutes other audio queues that could be helpful at the moment
  • A kiss curse that also increases mob HP in the run in general. The extra damage can be seen as an overall positive for this, but: that would require to plan ahead for this and use the 30% damage bonus combined with CDs most of the time. Given it’s randomness it doesn’t overlap well everytime.
  • Can happen out of combat/when running around/during mana reg before bosses and you get 0 use out of it.
  • Having to run into other players can overlap with other area of denial effects etc.
  • It is way too much random to be a cohesive experience and outcome on paper

As a summed up comparison:
Every other seasonal affix gave you some kind of control of how and when you going to deal with it and you could mostly separate it completely from dealing with bosses and/or trash. In this season it just happens and you have to deal with it.

Since we are talking about Swirlies:
Why do they still have no outline?! The percentage of their area that is visually in between their jagged edges but still has the effect is not too big. BUT: Once they get scaled up that area also increases while it becomes harder to gauge were it actually ends. This is not a lot of fun when you (for example) fight the Bird Boss in Algethar Academy with 2 fire swirlies spawning in melee range and Thundering is also spawning. You can have a really hard time telling how much or even if there is a safe spot in these situations.
As a different effect of this: Bosses with large models (wings etc) often obscure the view on these visuals. Not a problem exclusively with swirlies but making sure that effects like these don’t clutter up space around such bosses would help.
And the cherry on top for this mechanic: Swirlies on ground textures of similar color or on steep inclines.



3. Positive instead of negative affixes

Currently we have 2x5 affixes and players have learned to deal with them. And this is where it starts. Why is it always:

“Deal with it or get punished” instead of “Use this to your benefit or get nothing”

The moment you turn negative affixes into positive ones you move the time spend/effort required to deal with this into time gained by performing better having interacted with the affix. So scaling/balancing key levels would of course be acceptable if such a change would be made. The difference between doing nothing and using the affix effects to your benefit could be somewhere around 1-2 key levels therefor they should not lead to potential one-shots or completely sidelinding certain boss/trash mechanics. In general the versions that we get should never be even remotely close to what the current factors are for affixes. -40% HP on quaking or 100s of % from bolstering would be nonsense or make the gaps betweens using and not using it too big.

Given the current affixes and suggestions I’ve seen and heard here and there or came up with by myself it could look something like this:

+4

  • Bolstering
    Mobs don’t get buffed, you get buffed. Maybe also with the rolling buffs of the current iteration instead of one singular buff. That way a coordinated trash group wipe-out at once would be rewarding. Important factor here would be: Distances between packs, how long does the buff last, RP before bosses. Kiting meta etc. The stacks should not be too powerful though. Minions excluded I guess.

  • Bursting
    Mobs “explode” on death, bursting with orbs that return HP or ressources (color/symbol coded) when running through them. Despawn at some point. Risk-Reward interaction.

  • Raging
    Mobs enrage randomly at certain percentage points, turning red, making them receive more damage. That way swapping targets or kinda holding smaller CDs for it is rewarded.

  • Sanguine
    Mobs standing in these puddles will not drop HP but soak up the puddle when receiving damage. Players can do this too. Should it still happen on death or spawn randomly? How high are the values? Might make for some weird tank gameplay synergy if it is too strong.

  • Spiteful
    Spirits spawn in a small area around the place (not aggroing other mobs). They are wandering towards individual players. If it takes too long they despawn. Run into them early to receive a buff (+damage, +healing, - damage taken). Join them too late and you get nothing/they despawn (HP ticking down). Maybe the naming has to be changed. Who would be spiteful? For what?

+7

  • Explosive
    Orbs still spawn and despawn after maybe a longer than current time. Two options for their effect: Explode when being hit or running into them they bump away from you into other mobs and explode, dealing damage or leaving a modifier debuff (only on enemies).

  • Grievous
    The lower the player HP drops the more mana the healer receives when healing them. But this effect also diminishes over time. That is also a discussion had by healer players/designers though, idk how well each spec can adjust to these benefits. Also: What about shields? Does applying them count? What about spreading HOTs? The ultimate cheesing strat?

  • Quaking:
    No more cast interrupt, no more damage to other players. Overlap your ring with those of other players. Few seconds after that (circle animation) anything in those intersections is receiving decent damage (no 1 shots) or a small debuff that is a short term reward for risking cast-time for movement etc. Should it also interrupt caster mobs? Depends on uptime. If it’s too common those weeks are too desired since it’s more about utility than raw damage. If it is tied to triggering on overlap caster/healer might also have a decent chance to time their overlap when standing on ranged in general.
    Bonus point: No stress on elevators or mid-air in Algethar Academy (yes I’ve seen players die mid-air).
    Regarding the theme: If it triggers on overlap it’s also a lot more like you having control over that continental drift creating a quake instead of a random time bomb every once in a while.

  • Storming
    Storms are spawning and circling around (also near players/not just mobs). Catch them and get a short-term buff. Not as boring as a +X modifier though. Maybe melee specs get an AoE storm around them, caster spells proc effects like that onto their targets damaging enemies around them. That way positioning or swapping targets is prefered.

  • Volcanic
    Those always spawn around a players current position. Don’t trip into them when they burst? Nope: Run over all 3 of them and gain a fire proc damage buff.

These are all just suggestions. Maybe the devs come up with new stuff instead that doesn’t need a re-fitting of the theme for these affixes.



4. Tyrannical vs Fortified
Why does the damage dealt also have to increase? The core difference between those weeks is time spend on boss vs. time spend on trash. Just due to the HP increase. If the damage also increases we get two different outcomes.

  • Tyrannical:
    Bosses deal more damage especially when it comes to larger special attacks. What I remember the most where Legion bosses that would at some key-level one-shot you no matter what. Having immmunities for that one moment during the entire run made a clear difference (Blackrook endboss). If you die in a bossfight it’s BR or mostly a wipe. The boss resets to full HP and without a Soulstone it’s a full runback (see that topic below).

  • Fortified:
    You might die more often during trash but that mostly matters in terms of running back to the group (no CR, tank death & kiting spam aside). If a group wipe happens some trash mobs from a pull/pack will most likely be dead. That progress is not being reset.
    The increased damage modifier though puts way more emphasis on interrupts. Those seem to have become a lot more relevant in DF. Certain trash packs have up to 10 casts go off within the first 15 seconds and interrupts alone need heavy assistance from AoE stun and other forms of CC.

I’ve got nothing against a different focus on heavy AoE vs. sustained or single target focus changing from week to week. But the effect the extra “damage dealt” modifier has is a bit much.



5. Respawn points and run-back time
I could go through each dungeon but I’ll just use a few examples:

Halls of Valor:
You respawn at the start for boss #1,2,3 (and more? idk, haven’t wiped on the others in a long time). Start to #1, a few seconds on mount. Start to #2, distance wise more than double while also being dismounted for a large part. Same goes for #3. The sprint buff after defeating #2 or #3 is nice but why is there no respawn once the plateau before the inner hall is cleared for example. That one has a similar distance to most spots.
In general with these examples: It is not that much more or less common to wipe on a boss in general but why is one wipe more punishing in terms of running back than the other?

Shadowmoon Burial Grounds:
Respawn at the start until you get to boss #2. That run is just awful. Afterwarts each respawn is a lot closer to anywhere you want to get after a wipe. Why? Why is there no safe spot before the 1st boss once you cleared one of the two patrol packs before.

Jade Serpent:
Wipe at #1? Rather quick.
Wipe at #2? Basically run an entire circle around the room.
Wipe at #3? Basically run an entire circle around the #2 room and a similar distance to get back to it.
Wipe at #4? Straight forward for a few secs!
Why does the door for the 3rd one not open once #1 and #2 are defeated?

Algethar Academy
Slightly varying distance no matter where you wipe while also being able to mount up. This should be the minimum standard.

In general:
There once was a statement made in an interview that after a wipe 90 seconds should be the max amount of time to re-engage with the boss. I don’t think that works so well these days, especially in mythic+. 90 seconds is up to 5% or even more (sub 30 min runs) of an entire run. You can argue about the time being used to reflect on the mistakes and communicate, but: It is still weighed against a ticking timer.

For additional feedback/improvement on this topic (timer induced stress) see:

Similar statements have been made multiple times - also by influencers - about the size of raids and lack of safe/spawn spots within. Why do I have to run through the labyrinth that is Castle Nathria to get back to the Kael’Thas encounter when there could be a simple safe spot right before the encounter area that is active for anyone dying during the fight once the last trash pack has been cleared?
If I wiped on The Jailer I just run in a straight line for a few seconds.



6. Energy Bars, Irrelevant Mana Bars and the Lack of Timers/Information
These days most 5man bosses have an energy bar that is at least a signifier for when the next big special attack/spawn will happen. You’ve added older dungeons to the Mythic+ pool that are 10+ years old where bosses have similar design but still display a standard mana bar that is absolutely irrelevant for their design.

Now this is not just an argument for current day re-implementation. You are on a certain QOL level when bosses can give you that information. If that would be standardised from the first dungeon ever (sure BFA is basic newcomer leveling) or rather for every dungeon boss ever (Timewalking has bosses up to 16 years old by now) it would be an established pattern that helps any kind of player to learn a bit in this game.

Now you could also add extra blocks in said energy bar that might display different events coming up that are more frequent and less impactful. And once said bar is a separate Interface part and could be modified and moved around it would be quite similar to the most basic Boss Mod feature.
A feature like this does not have to be immersion breaking to be the most basic & useful interface addition that helps players.



7. Applying until the heat death of the universe: the Pugging experience
This is more of an interface QOL point.

Why do I have to click so much?

  • Clicking on the listed run.
  • Clicking on sign up.
  • Confirming your role (people rarely write a text).

Wandering in a triangle over the screen each time.

Why does applying not look like this?:
Click on the role (greyed out if not filled) for the roster of said group. Done.
That is 1 instead of 3 clicks. If you want to give info for the lead, have a text icon on the listed run element.

How desired is that group?
The person listing their key can see if 1 or 20 people are interested in that run. People applying can’t. Adding a number showing this to applicants would help. If you just want to jump into a run it might be more tempting to fill in groups that are less frequented. This does not remove the time effort to get a spot but it would improve it. Will people be discouraged to queue up for highly frequented keys? Maybe.

But this and long waiting times for DPS in general are the essence of 2 much broader topics:

  • Tank/Healer shortage or “should vengeance return in some form?”

  • Perceived Dungeon Difficulty: SBG vs NO/AV

I’ll leave those topics for specific discussions since they are related to class & dungeon design and it’s consequences.



Conclusion:
Many individual aspects make up and can improve the Mythic+ experience. Dragonflight is seen as a time of looking at the basics of the game and improving them.
I hope I’ve gone over the most relevant ones for the M+ topic in this post.

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I’d like to add another problem to the list: old dungeons without properly redesigning them. I’m sick and tired of dying to “avoidable” damage in old dungeons because there are barely visual and audio hints for “frontal” one-shots, barely visible mechanics/puddles/swirlies, or trees blocking your view.

Most dungeons were designed in a different era of wow and it shows. I don’t mind old content being re-used, as long as it at least gets modernized. Right now most if it just slapping the M+ label on it and calling it a day. There’s so much potential to redesign the mechanics and fix the visuals and audio, yet we get 6~8 year old content branded as “end-game”.

I don’t mind whatever solution is going to be taken, as long as it’s consistent. It’s so annoying that every dungeon has different respawns and ways of getting back to the group, and I can never remember which one it is.

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Since it is Quaking week again, a comment on Quaking and how it stands out from all other affixes:

    1. All +4 affixes are tied to mobs dying or close to (raging). You always know when and where they will occur.
    1. Grievous aside (Healer affix, you know when to focus on it due to how damage spikes occur) all +7 affixes are random events that have to be avoided or be dealt with within a certain time frame. 3 of them only happen once you are infight.
    1. Now Quaking is just not fitting here: Can happen at any moment, there is some internal CD which some people “track” via an external Addon. People have 0 control or indicators otherwise. You fixed it for Bonemaw in SBG, meanwhile it can also completely mess up the 2nd boss in Court of Stars. Compared to Explosive for example there is a timer within which you have to move just like you have to kill the orb. But once the orb is gone, that’s it. Once the Quaking spell finishes there will be an interrupt for casters, regardless of you hitting another player or not. Melees don’t really care since hit boxes are fine most of the time. Also: It always happens to every player. Explosive orbs don’t force each player to hit them. Storming doesn’t spawn near every player each time, same goes for Volcanic. The latter one (imo) is super trivial since you either stand still and rarely move over it the moment it goes off.
      In general: The effect is always somewhere between annoying or downright punishing in the moment while all other effects are more predictable and managable.

And regardless of all of this: Positive affixes would be a welcome change, a positive one so to speak.

Just remove all the affixes. We’ve had the same ones since its inception for 3 full expansions and the start of the 4th one.

Just delete all the affixes. Don’t put some on break or w/e. Just remove all of them, and create new ones.

*laughs in Demon Hunter* Though I’d argue that the design of Eye Beam is partly to blame here, as having so much damage rely on such a fragile channel is also just a faulty design imo. I Honestly feel that quaking impacts my Devastation Evoker less than my DH, because I’m already dancing around in melee dodging 20 million melee mechanics. Demon hunter burst when not playing with the horrible movement build has a burst window that involves a chain of spells that has 2x an Eye Beam cast in short success spread out of a period where there’s an extremely high chance of getting into the quaking window. It’s already hard enough to find a moment to stand still and cast as it is, and quaking makes that even harder.

We’ve reached a point where dungeon mechanics have become complicated enough without having to deal with affixes. In fact I’d say we’ve already reached this point in Shadowlands. With the addition of rotating dungeons, this many affixes make very little to no sense. Bring it down to 1 seasonal quality affix per week.

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Cases I forgot:

  • Odyn in HoV grabs all players on one spot before the big AoE. Potential wipeout.
  • Jade Serpent #1 might get messy if you have to rotate around and the water is about to come up.
  • SBG #1 if you just stacked in the safe spots and the eclipse AoE ends in just the right moment.
  • Algethar last boss when being grabbed to the middle perfectly syncs up with the tick.
  • Maybe also on #1 when you just stacked up to coordinate the add spawn. It’ll be chaos to spread well in that moment.
  • Ruby Life Pools #2: baiting the meteor can go messy/against the plan if the timing is bad. You spread and then the target is chosen and not that well positioned.
  • 3rd Boss: Already has Interrupting Cloudburst. Why add another, especially once it’s getting close in terms of HPS.
  • Nokhud Offensive: The last boss has a timed AoE grip, once again perfect timing and it’s a wipeout.
  • Azure Vault #3: I’d have to do a run this week and get the perfect bad timing to see if the Quaking area is at least a bit smaller than the safety bubble for his special AoE. If so you can position yourself (nearly perfectly) and survice when #5 is standing in dead center.

COS and HOV already existed with some of these active. I’d say right now Thundering is adding too much RNG on top of the “area of denial” spells. Combined with another time-bomb debuff that has 2-color coordination and is working inverse compared to Quaking.

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In general when it comes to effects stacking with higher and higher key-levels:
What should determine the so-to-speak roadblock?

  • Despite avoiding everything that can be avoided attacks are hitting too hard (not just for the tank) or
  • You play perfect and lack DPS at some point?

I’d guess the 2nd case.

Lately we also have the compounding effects of Tyrannical and Grievous respectively Fortified and Bolstering or Raging. These get inverted over the course of the affix rotation to give more variety of weekly combinations but these absolute peaks in terms of pressure and punishment feel bad. The overall experience from week to week should not be this much of a roller coaster.

Adding to that: The top end of key levels are way lower than in the last few seasons. Meanwhile the key level for relevant gear has gone up significantly.

  • Compared to Raid scaling we get +6 ilvls for 5 additional key levels in terms of Vault reward. 5 key levels in that range (upwards of +10) result in +70% increase in HP and damage done.
  • Meanwhile jumping an entire raid tier (scaling within the difficulty aside) we get +13 ilvls with boss stats (mechanical additions aside) increasing by roughly 30% (afaik).

This worsens the overall perception once again.

Instead of one big singular issue there are a lot of minor factors endlessly compounding. I hope that at least Season 2 can iron these out.

Since it’s also been a part of a reddit thread:
The problem with camera angles and objects blocking your view or forcing zoom-in and -out. The most obvious cases are interior areas - Tol Dagor and Sanguine Depths come to mind. These narrow passages aside at many points within all dungeons these overview problems also result from mob pack density, aggro range and having to pull close to walls/objects blocking your view.
You can have bottlenecks or gating via group placements (shrouding aside) but the combination of “just out of aggro range” and interfering patrols also creates these kind of situations. There has to be a way to design mob layout for a dungeon that is a bit more relaxed without breaking immersion or feeling too generic.

Another way to make a controllable effect like this work:

  • During the week with this affix active players that get in proximity with each other - which would give ranged/healer control over it too - trigger a quaking effect, dealing damage to enemies.
  • Once a player participated in that they get a debuff indicating how long it takes until it can be triggered again by said player.
  • Depending on the CD of this you could also allow it to interrupt enemy spells.
  • That way you could force a 5 player quake or combinations/cascades of 3/2, 3/1/1 2/1/1/1, 2/2/1, given that proximity to players with a debuff still triggers it.

Still just a suggestion, but fits into using beneficial affixes while having full control over it.

Hey, I love that you took the time to write this so in-depth!

Personally, I do think that Blizz should be taking another look at M+ design philosophy. Why are affixes mostly only punishments instead of synergizing with both the dungeon and the players? I think for the higher end player, it can feel really good to make use of a kiss/curse mechanic to its highest potential, and certainly adds variety to routes and route planning to get the most out of it depending on the week.

One downside to affixes in general, I think is that they feel like annoying obstacles depending on the week. As a healer, I legit just prefer to not play at all during explosive week because spending every other global pressing moonfire just is not the way I prefer to play the game when there are so many more interesting things I could be doing, and I’m sure lots of other classes and specs feel the same way about a certain affix.

I think providing more kiss/curse or just having less affixes would improve player experience. Blizz makes great dungeons with great mechanics, and its a shame that certain dungeons (like Sanguine Depths in SL with Quaking for example) are severely diminished by the affixes as they are now.

I also think that explosive could be revamped to be almost identical to the S4 raid affix where you had to kill the spark in time and get a buff after doing so. It maintains the same theme of an explosive orb, and a challenge in that it would require priority damage, while still giving a bonus for the time investment. This is an affix that I think would be fine in any dungeon, and if spawned in proximity to other mobs would not favor ranged over melee, as the current iteration does.

I think this is honestly the most interesting idea that could make a very positive change, especially for the pug community. I have “wasted” so much time upgrading a key to a level that I need score for after a deplete (even by .0x seconds) and it does feel bad. It currently also encourages people (especially pugs) to leave keys. I think a depletion threshold like the one that currently exists around 20% that would net you a new (same key level) key would encourage people to finish keys that would be close to depletion time as well as increase enjoyment when people have limited time per week to do keys so that they spend less time ranking up “useless” keys.

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