So, I have seen many argument from both side about this question but I am more curious,
From a purely objective point of you, meaning regardless how you feel about the content which is harder ? is a +2 comparable to LFR is a +7 comparable to Heroic raid is a +10 comparable to mythic raiding ?
Are the rewards for both decent enough for the amount of effort ? I can’t wait to see what people will write and I know we can all be passionated about this subject but please remain civil :)!
It has always depended on the “who” more than the what.
Raiding due to its ability to scale up players, is more forgiving until …it’s not (aka, wipe mechanics that one person could activate).
Mythic + only being 5 players means that any one player who is off their game can really turn the run upside down, especially with these current affixes. And there is so much to learn in m+, you use far more abilities, etc.
its very difficult to compare the two 1:1.
the current beginning learning curve of m+ is far harder - constant one shots, and not enough in game feedback to teach players what damage is damage that you have to soak (with defensives to help healers), vs an avoidable mechanic (interrupt, cc, or something else).
Very good take! it seem that alot of people have to rely on platers to help understanding what interrupts are important like Quarzi, I feel like any content where you almost feel obligated to download an addon or WA is a sad thing.
LFR is easier than all of M+, M0, and possibly even heroics. It’s basically story mode.
If it’s a matter of which is more difficult, there’s nothing really objective about it. It really just comes down to what the people running it excel at more.
Some might look at the number of people it takes to run a mythic raid and say that the level of skill and organization needed across 20 people make it more difficult than mythic dungeons. Others may and often do argue that due to the player limit in dungeons, the nature of runs being timed, and the fact a failed run means a demoted key level, the increased weight of responsibility per player means there’s little to no room for error at the higher keystone levels.
A raid can be more time consuming to complete but offer incremental rewards as the run progresses, while a dungeon at a high levels may be ran in a shorter window but have more brutal consequences and fewer loot rewards, if any at all.
Does the player find a 10 minute fight with complicated mechanics shared across 20 people harder to complete a 35 minute dungeon with arguably simpler mechanics but with the added responsibility of dealing with multiple trash mechanics and the added complexities of affixes more difficult?
There is no definitive answer, and there never will be. Difficulty in games and how players respond to it is a spectrum, which is why both methods of play are supported and tend to have comparable rewards.
The people who say the best gear should come from one camp or another have a tendency to not look outside their wheelhouse when it comes to how people cope with difficult mechanics differently. Few people get CE in a season, just like only few get the title for being in the top percentages of score - even trying to measure it by how many people complete the tasks compared to one another becomes a muddy comparison to make.
It is entirely a matter of subjectivity, which is why I tend to think the topic’s a bit silly. I feel it tends to devolve into a conversation about “why I don’t think x player deserves loot that I have”, or something along those lines. 
I couldn’t give a fly fart about competitive gaming and ratings.
Around 90%+ of WoW players agree with me based on M+ statistics. Maybe 5% doing M+ and 1% doing +9 or higher currently. Nobody cares about M+ or more players would take part.
Raiding is fun. From MC, Onxyia and on through current content. I game to have fun. I enjoy some challenge in my gaming but M+ is exactly the opposite of fun for what I look for in a game I spend my free time on.
My opinion… Nobody does M+, Blizzard should get rid of them completely. If you want ratings and competition go do PVP. M+ is artificial difficulty garbage with no purpose. It doesn’t belong in a casual MMO like WoW.
Nop.
Nop. M+ is way more rewarding.
While I agree that M+ is in a weird state right now due to the current climate of players and dungeons this season, I think it’s disingenuous to say that no one cares about M+.
If it were a feature that no one used, then Blizzard would have ceased supporting it a long time ago, but players do still engage with it whether it be for the rewards or just enjoying more challenging short-form content.
Dungeon affixes and scaling levels offer more flexibility in terms of catering to different levels of play. Since M+ was introduced, the game’s ability to offer a more challenging experience has broadened significantly. It’s hard to cover people in that middle ground, and M+ does that well.
Part of WoW being so successful is that despite being a casual MMO, it caters to a wide variety of skill levels. You want to have that, otherwise you isolate parts of your community and lose players. We should want to have MORE players playing this game.
Raid is always “harder” because there are elements beyond simple game skills. Managing people is far more difficult than any mechanic in this game. Which is why raid is a garbage worthless gamemode really showing its 20 years old age.
I just need to point out something first and foremost: for an overwhelming amount of people, they are both PvE game modes. Nothing more, nothing less. This is why folks who participate in any PvE in WoW is likely to also participate in other forms of PvE. Delves being an exception due to it being completely soloable.
So… the first thing would be to acknowledge that there’s no “sides” here. Just folks who enjoy PvE and then the oddballs who decidedly don’t like some forms of PvE, with many of those people engaging in some egregious “No true scotsman” fallacies on these forums. All of this meaning that your question is largely defunct and doesn’t have a proper answer, except the one…
This is the wrong framing of the question. None of them are harder than the others in a void. You cannot compare raiding to M+ the way you are attempting to do. For the same reason why a Delve cannot be compared to either raiding or M+ for that matter.
Delves are part of the conversation as they demonstrate the limits of what an endgame soloable activity is, and also how such an activity affects the overall pacing of other areas of the game as well. But M+ and raiding are both group content, designed for different sized groups.
If we opt for a “Difficulty per group mechanics” raiding will always have the most difficult mechanics because it is has the most amount of people. If we opt for a mathematical and performance style view of what’s most difficult, M+ scales infinitely whereas Mythic raids doesn’t.
So the answer is that they are differently difficult because they are designed with different elements in mind. You cannot compare the two of 'em the way you are doing. So the answer is … ask a better question, or frame the question in such a way where it is possible to answer it.
This is for an example such a question.
Are the rewards proportional to the content?
Here one can debate quite lively and I’m firmly on the side that Delves are scaled appropriately. Heroic raids aren’t massively complicated and anyone who want to can get achievements like AOTC if you put in the effort. So that means that soloable gear providing heroic gear? Sure. Now whether it should be obtainable as a drop or via the vault… The vault would likely be better for the game but having an additional weekly option for a piece of heroic gear would likely make the gearing feel better.
Delves need more work in getting the pacing right but overall, it is fine. And on the same token of stuff that is fine, M+ gearing is also fine. It cannot be a source for Mythic gear that’s droppable outside of the vault as that would be frankly insane, but as it is a mode that can be scaled mathematically up to infinite, that certainly deserves to have access to the highest possible gear in the game. Not to the degree where said gear can drop from the activity itself, that’s reserved to raids, but from the vault? Yeah sure.
So… yeah. There’s not really that much of a debate when framed as “either or” as you have, but if one want to discuss certain aspects such as gearing and how it influences each others, sure.
But from that angle Delves, M+, and raids seem to be fine. Mythic raids might need an increase in gear but I haven’t heard of a convincing argument for that, so that’s more of a potential maybe rather than a definite. So overall, it is fine and works exceedingly well as it is right now.
I doubt we can even compare a M+ to a Mraid, I mean one needs 5 players while the other needs 20+.
I used to raid a lot, be in cores, raid lead, etc… but to me content that requires less players is just better
Who, what, where. Too many factors. Heroic raiding at this point is super easy. Can clear that in an hour, but 10s are still difficult to time. Especially if you wipe.
Mythic raiding is definitely harder than M+. Nobody is wiping 100+ times on bosses in M+.
Pug or premade is the deciding factor in M+. Premades have it easy. Most of us live the pug life. It can be a pain.
I’m happy we have choices 
People talk about WoW being hard or whatever but the game has no stakes. You just throw yourself at the game 600 times and eventually you will over come it. You never lose your gold, your never lose items, you never lose XP, nothing happens when you die other than “hehe waste your time by running back, hehe time out”.
Try Get Fix’d Boi Terraria. Try Project Zomboid with sprinters. Try Factorio with Rampant. XCOM Long War. You will learn the meaning of difficulty and isolation.
Those games you rely on yourself and you are the deciding factor.
In M+ and raiding you rely on others. Huge difference and harder imo.
Your comparison doesn’t fit.
The interesting thing is that both content really don’t work the same.
Raids are harder at the start and will keep getting easier with time, with a focus mainly on mechanics. Raids require massive coordination and often a very detailed plan how to accomplish. Raids also scale in difficulty as you kill bosses so when comparing to raid are you comparing to the first boss or last boss because that can be a world of difference.
While M+ will get harder over time as people are figuring out the dungeons and push more. At the higher end you have to find imaginative solutions to survive and be able to pull more which often can lead to what you’d call cheesing. There’s many strats in M+ which are about “how we can remove mechanics?” which in raiding would often be fixed. The dps checks simply keeps getting higher too as you push keys.
It’s a bit trying to compare bgs with arenas. Arenas will often have more players focusing more on personal skill but you need a different toolset in bgs when it comes to team coordination and strategy and even the best arena players can be terrible in bgs because of that.
But to answer the question yes I think a +10 can be comparable to some part of mythic raiding, same as a +7 can be compared to some of heroic bosses. LFR is not really comparable with anything as it’s made as a foolproof content but a +2 also reward items on a higher track than LFR so the comparison is not appropriate.
I think currently there has been mistakes with the upgrade tracks overlapping too much and maybe they made hero track gear a bit too easy to obtain but I like what they did with +10s for m+ and dislike the easier tuning that they did for the 4 first mythic bosses, I think it’s a bit of bad joke to make half a raid as easy.
As far as rewards go m+ is still massively rewarding for the time spent, raiding is not efficient at all if rewards are your main goal. The crest/crafting system heavily favor M+, the great vault also heavily favor M+ and is more than half of your weekly myth track loot even if you mythic raid as you need to kill at least 5 mythic bosses to get even with the vault and that you will most likely end up extending on last bosses at some point. For me they could easily buff raid rewards by 10-30%.
./clapping in agreement
I play Get Fix’d Boi with a coworker and I’ve played PZ with sprinters with other people also. Factorio is also multiplayer, but I never played that with anyone.
“Relying on others” isn’t hard though. If your team is good, your team is good, it’s not hard. It’s not really even a comparison in the first place. WoW is straight up not difficult. The last couple Mythic bosses maybe.
Is Football more difficult than Chess or Poker or Golf because you have to rely on a team? It’s not even a comparison.
Have you been careful to only look at people who have done both Cutting Edge raid AND something like Keystone Hero?
Generally the “both side” is a lot of M+ players who don’t do CE raiding, and have zero clue what they’re talking about.
I don’t see why we can’t do both.
The reward cap for Mythic Plus is only 10, so there’s nothing to gain from higher keys. Meanwhile, M10 is relatively easy and not challenging, making it an achievable short-term (week1-week2)goal.
Conversely, Mythic raids offer better rewards but require a longer time commitment.
The two are not contrivances at all.
They each have their own problems.
M+ doesn’t give loot above hero track, making you rely on vault luck. It’s also extremely meta driven, given the difficulty and the small group size.
On the plus side, it’s infinitely repeatable, so you can continue to practice until you know every mob. And in the early part of the season, being able to grind out a base set of gear is great. It’s also a repeatable source of crests.
Raids, however, suffer from a lockout problem. You probably won’t see any boss more than 5-10 times. If you want to learn it, you need to learn it during prog. The group size makes pickup groups impractical, if not downright impossible for how demanding the pattern is for later mythic bosses.
That said, raids do give the best items:hours ratio (maybe not worth delves), but that require that you know 19 other people who are willing to learn a 3-9 minute dance, and that nothing goes wrong during the fight.
Now, to the question at hand, I think the breakpoints were already fine. Moving gilded down is kind of a handout, but because of the ease of movement from raid to m+ (compared to the opposite) it’s a handout to both. I don’t think I would have lowered it, personally.
The MOST fun I’ve ever had in this game was 10 man raids. M+ kinda recaptures some of that, but it’s pretty obvious that dungeon designs are an afterthought. Even in the forums, people are asking for it without asking for it. (Bigger dungeons, no timers, better loot). I just don’t get it. 10 man mythic raids would be an instant banger. Blizzard could mail everyone $100 and that would still be less popular than 10 man mythic.
Raids are hard for the wrong reasons.