So, as I sit here waiting to log in and check my vault, I find this is probably the best time to bring this up. And to be clear at the beginning the “issues” referred to in the title is a direct reference to leavers.
So, I get we all want to push the keys. Get out rating up so we can get that sweet mount, or whatever we get. I dont know what it is because I don’t do really anything in this game in pursuit of an achievement. I do the stuff I find fun and that my comp can handle. But there is a major issue plagueing M+ PUGs.
It’s relatively easy to tell early on if you will time a key. If you wipe on the first boss and have a couple deaths getting there you probably won’t time the key. And if you abandon the dungeon you get a downgraded key as “compensation”. But here’s my thing, you get the downgraded key on completing an untimed M+ as well, but then EVERYONE in the group still gets to loot the chest at the end. Perhaps it’s not as good as timing a key, but with how many keys aren’t getting timed this season why would you leave a group and leave those crests/gear on the table just because it’s not going to be timed? If it’s a “push” key for you (meaning higher than what you’ve already done) you will still gain a bit of rating as well…
So, long story short, because YOU get upset about dying in the hardest version of dungeon content that is designed to be an incredible challenge you have griefed the rest of the groups day. Finish the dungeon, some of these people are still learning mechanics. And if you’re still running 3’s and 4’s like me right now, you’re not one of the best in the game and have plenty of time to be patient and help someone learn mechanics. Because perhaps that group you were patient with will turn out to be people worth grouping with again, as happened to me when I made a new buddy running PUG M+ a couple days ago.
I guess I’m looking for clarity on what the benefit of abandoning a key, just to turn around and probably cause another group to abandon a key because you can’t be bothered to understand the type of content you’re running.
When abandoning the key is warranted, the main benefit is saving time.
Almost all the TWW S1 dungeon selections are a slog to get through, especially on the higher end, compared to ones from previous seasons/expansions. This is especially the case if you’re in a PuG with less-than-capable players. This past reset’s affix, in particular, really highlighted how ill-prepared or unwilling most players/PuGs are with dealing with important mechanics and that’s not even addressing things like interrupts, CC, etc.
There’s no sense in bulldozing through a key and racking up dozens of deaths (and repair bills) if it’s abundantly clear the people you’re running with don’t have the HPS, DPS, or ability to deal with boss/trash/affix mechanics.
Of course, this doesn’t apply to players who leave at the first sign of trouble. Those people are trash.
I get the first group of people you described. At that point you’ve probably made it passed the first boss and have a good feel for your healing output or damage output. But I had a guildee lose back to back keys yesterday because people got upset that they weren’t using their interrupts and all of ours (there were three from the guild in the group) were on CD. Ended up leaving after a trash pulls that went sideways.
The rest of us knew what was going on and tried to explain but before we could they were gone and the keys were shot. Mayhaps a +2 can be 4 man’s if you have tank/healz and solid DPS, but what kind of healer would stay through that, I dont blame the healers for leaving those groups.
I guess I see the time thing as a non issue. But that’s only because I know I’m running low keys still and see finishing (times or not) and getting that chest as more important than quitting and looking for another group. But, I think I may be holding my fellow players to my personal standards and that’s not fair for anyone. I appreciate your insight friend
Time. Some people don’t have an hour and a half available to do a dungeon.
People have a lot of different perspectives on things in MMOs, and I’ve found one of the biggest factors is simply how much free time a person has. There’s a huge difference in how you able to spend your time in game when you have 5 hours to play vs 1 hour.
People only abandon keys that are not going well. Everyone has a different level of tolerance for failure. Some people will leave after one wipe. Some people will stick through multiple wipes, and the key taking 1 hour+.
If you want assurance that the pugs will most likely stay through the bad, then list the key as completion and ask if they will stay to complete the key if you do not time it. This is as close to a guarantee you will get from pugs.
This is what I typically do when I’m anxiously tanking and listing my own key. I’ll pick completion, title it as something like “+4 chill completion” and then in the description something like “no huge pulls or fancy paths”
Usually it works out well. I just make sure to avoid inviting anyone with a score or gear significantly higher than the key since they usually come in with a hero complex and act annoying.
No people definitely abandon keys at the first sign of trouble. Dying because the healer didn’t dispell the tank and watching the healer and one DPS bounce after the first trash pull?
Nah, I’m running 2-4’s this is the level to learn mechanics and I try to explain mechanics before key is inserted, people don’t want to listen in low keys is the issue, it’s supposed to be faceroll easy, why do I need to work mechanics seems to be the issue plagueing low keys ATM.
That’s simple and you unknowingly talked about it earlier on. People run M+ for gear, but also for enjoyment of the game. When keys are going smoothly, it’s fun. When it’s a wipe fest and a 30 minute run turns into an hour, it’s not fun.
Also like you stated, people are likely to leave early on if there’s multiple deaths and wipes on the first boss because that sets the tone. Which means there’s less of a sunk cost fallacy and people are more willing to leave now to join another key and finish that one faster than the current one.
The large majority of the time, it’s not the one who’s dying that leaves.
You are largely assuming that it’s everyone else and not you that’s making errors.
They don’t the large majority of the time. If you feel like it’s the first sign of trouble then it is highly likely that you are just completely unaware of all of the other signs.
What other signs before the first pull? Literally ran a +3 Mists the other day, I kept my interrupts on CD, as a DH I have 3 and WoWHead wants me to take a 4th. But when the healer took a second to yell about interrupts before leaving (when my weak aura and seeing cast bars interrupted told me interrupts were going out) that’s an issue. Especially when I turn around, watch a guide and realize it was the healer who let us down by not dispelling the tank. That’s an issue. That’s someone who read stuff in chat and thinks they know what’s going on but don’t, and still want to yell at you.
Again, my point was that people don’t leave on the first pull, wipe, death the large majority of the time. How often is this happening? That’s the important question here.
Yes, in this scenario, it was mainly the healer’s fault for not dispelling, but at the same time the tank shouldn’t be getting deleted in a +3 without dispel. It’s also largely on the tank as well for not managing defensives properly.
For reference, this is on a Tyrannical week where the trash shouldn’t be hitting that hard.
Good point, I am timing about half my keys right now and along the untimed leaves don’t usually happen until after the first boss.
I apologize, I was trying to defend my point I ignored yours. But my point is still an issue. Because it has happened about a handful of times now on +4’s usually. Something will go sideways on the first pull and people leave. Even if it’s managed and no one dies. I get the mentality in, what, +7 or higher. These are tough keys, these are 2k push keys. You should be expected to know and be familiar with all the mechanics at that point. But 2-4 is the learning curve. Or am I wrong in that thought?
The Mists run was end of last cycle, so not the sweet affixes we have this week.
as people have already stated it doesnt take a genius to figure out people dont want to be stuck in a losing battle and would rather cut their losses and leave.
seems like people that dont want people to leave just want to hold others hostage in a bad group.
There’s going to be hurdles at +4, +7, +8, and +10.
+4 for the start of Runed Harbinger Crests
+7 for the start of Hero track end of dungeon drops
+8 for the start of Gilded Harbinger Crests
+10 for the start of Myth track Vault
People are going to rush to these points when they aren’t ready for it because their only focus is on gear and they are going to make it a bad experience for everyone else in the process. It happens every season wherever the cutoffs are.
Not a problem, but appreciated.
If you are timing about half plus finishing some untimed keys then I think you are doing fairly well. There are always going to be failures in challenging content.
Or my goal in M+ runs is to finish them. 2-4 is my chance to learn mechanics before they get “one shot punishing” it’s not about holding anyone hostage, it’s about the fact I find it fun learning the game. I want to go out and learn how to overcome these mechanics. But I can’t when people leave at the first sign of trouble, at a level in Keys where most in them are still learning mechanics.
This season is my first venture into M+ and my only goal in there is finish the run. How can my character be useful to the team in this dungeon specifically…
But as a returning player from Cata/MoP era with a progression guild, I don’t like the existence of guide videos, no matter how useful I find them. I miss the old days when me and a bunch of guildees would be at our faces into a boss and die, talk about what happened, plan a fix and then try it. I know these days don’t exist anymore, but that brings up a whole other issue we won’t go too much into, why aren’t these people watching guides they swear by
Do you have the RIO addon? I would highly recommend it if you are forming your own groups. Looking at score alone isn’t a great metric because untimed runs provide a lot of score and makes people inflated.
You should consider their overall score, but mainly look at their highest timed run for the dungeon you are running. Inviting someone who timed a +3 in Mist you can trust more for a +4 than someone who only timed a +2, but their score reflects that they completed a +5 out of time.
Nah, anyone who leaves a 2-4 is someone who doesn’t want to learn mechanics, because if your rating is low enough a 2-4 is beneficial then you yourself are still learning and should savor the chance to finish a run, times or not, so you can learn the mechanics.
Make all the excuses you want, but leavers of 2-4 should be punished, and I say in a similar manner as LFG leavers, take rating away from anyone who abandons an M+ any amount, doesn’t matter. But if you are running 2-4 as progression accept that you don’t know what you’re doing and stick around to learn mechanics.
