Yes but this is all irrelevant to what I was saying. I wasn’t talking about difficulty, just responding to your question “Ahh, so you’ve done the dungeons at the highest possible level then, have you?”
I mean, I also have mythic raided to an extent in Legion, heroic raids regularly…but it was Legion so it doesn’t count right? I raided vanilla Naxx, but it was vanilla so it doesn’t count right? What is the point here? If it wasn’t in BfA, it wasn’t considered hard content/an accurate stance?
I bet more crackers are eaten per day than steak, but if you had to choose between the two you’d take the steak
Best gear comes from raids.
The top players in M+ still raid Mythic. Just check out the top tanks and everyone of them is using the mythic tanking trinkets. The majority of the best trinkets and weapons come from Mythic raids. Gearing after past 440 is much faster in Mythic.
Diffuculty wise? Raids are a joke. Raiding has never tested the ability of individual players well. It tests how a group of 20 to 25 people work together.
Disagree. M+ is far more engaging then Raiding. Content that scales with ability and gear is far more interesting to me then reaching plateaus.
The best gear is still in Mythic EP.
This is relative.
Getting ANY piece of Azerite… sure. Some of the best pieces can still take weeks or months or longer to get. If your aim is to simply get ilvl… then sure, M+ is a good route.
Diffuculty wise? Raids are a joke. Raiding has never tested the ability of individual players well. It tests how a group of 20 to 25 people work together.
No, not difficulty wise–that’s what I’m still trying to clarify posts later even though I already further explained. A joke in that it’s super easy to gear up in–and easy to do quickly…as I said right before that.
Disagree. When I had originally been playing the game through vanilla, we would run dungeons over and over again to get gear. There was no lockout on how many times we could run that dungeon. We did not have to, but we could.
Modern WoW focuses on stripping agency from the player and controlling how they spend their time. Which makes the game stale. --> Cap your conquest --> Complete your Mythic Raid --> Run your Keystone --> Cap your Islands --> Do your Emissaries.
This model demands that I do something. Not that I choose to do it. That is the problem. If you choose to disengage you will fall behind on the hamster wheel because your progress is determined by your ability to play week to week. If you play the game ALOT in one week, but not a small amount of time between weeks - then you are worse off.
Also, organized guilds already trivialize the content through gear trading anyways. So why can the individual not choose their path?
And you outgeared dungeons in a week.
By having you… spam dungeons for gear ? 
That stuff is quite optional, you can do none of it, all of it, or spam only part of it (outside of the raid).
Seems like a personal issue.
because its much MUCH easier to get gear and the because of that the raid gear doesn’t feel very rewarding especially since they got rid of tier sets. To be honest I think the dev team hates raiding and wants to get rid of it. why else would they make it so much easier to gear through mythic + over raiding?
People like short dungeons to long ones that take several hours.
And why not when you can get the same level gear as a Mythic raider just by pushing keys?
Right, you choose not to engage in any of the arguments.
The point is that you give people multiple options that they can invest their time in. If they prefer a certain form of content, they can binge that content and disregard other content.
If you want to optimize how you play, the current system forces you into a narrow selection of items for best progression. When you add in alts the entire process becomes tiring. You can choose to disengage and marginally improve your character.
If you choose to binge PvP you will be capped very quickly on how fast you can progress your character. The reward system is hardcapped. If you choose to raid and don’t pool gear, same issue.
My argument is to reward players for doing what they enjoy and to emphasize player agency over all. Capped tasks are not engaging, they are not interesting.
Yeah, BiS trinkets, weapons with effects worth tons of ilvl and easy 445 Azerite drops.
“Much easier to spam keys”. For sure. Frankly, right now, the best way to gear a toon is a full clear of Heroic and then spamming keys. You guys dismiss the raid gear way too easily, EP gear is good as heck.
I dont think thats true. If you clear a +15 everyone will probably get some loot. So lets say it take you three hours to clear a raid with 20 people in it. The equivalent time I could run about 5-6 dungeons so that would be like getting 100-120 pieces of loot.
im with you on that at the start of the expansion I was ONLY raiding and wasn’t getting spit im only as geared as I am now because of mythic + even though I would rather gear through raiding. Much more fun imo.
There are a ton of reasons why this is so, but I think the major point is the progressively more difficult elements. It seems to appeal heavily to that scene.
Also the fact that even though there are prescribed paths, you can actually make your own, which makes it unique. Strategies and such can completely shift from week to week as well giving it a fresh vibe as well.
Not to mention the competitive side of it. Which is very entertaining (at least in my experience)
Which is what Retail has.
Compared to classic which has… well… basically nothing to do after like 2 weeks.
Which is what retail does and Classic doesn’t do.
Unless you use “Agency” to mean “I want less content to do and want my gear done in less than a week”. Which is not what agency is.
If you’re clearing +15s, no one needs the loot unless it titanforges. Get a group of sub-430 players and have them clear a +15.
If you’re clearing 15s, you clear the raid much faster than it takes to do 5-6 dungeons at the gear level you’re at.
Maybe you’re not. As I specified, the first kill of the end boss will generally require attempts. Otherwise it’s a quick clean clear, not as fast as later due to longer kill times but still, no more than 2 hours for a good guild. Meanwhile 10s around this time will generally be one chested for similar groups.
People wiping on heroic will also be outright failing 10s, and probably even not completing fairly frequently.
I dont know about your raid but we have a lot of carries.
I think a lot of people are forgetting what prompted this discussion to begin with : OP said we should remove the lockout from Raiding.
I was only pointing out that currently, with a lockout, the raid is very rewarding, removing the lockout would make it way too rewarding.
And then people started this “nah, Mythic+ is more rewarding!” tidbit. As if the most optimal gearing route for an alt isn’t clearing Heroic and then spamming 10 keys.
Are we really going to discuss paid carries now ?
Then the raid wins in terms of gold/gear ratio. You get a 4 person funnel with 8 boss clear much cheaper than you would 8 10 keys with an armor stack.
That’s not relevant to a balancing / gearing discussion. I may raid without half my gear on but no one cares when making design decisions.