i think you are blatantly ignoring the Ops points lol
Ragefeather, Horn of Valour and Eye of Skovald says hi.
Agreed, raiding killed raiding because of its inflexibility.
M+ is just an extension of the 10 man difficulty to me. A shorter commitment to fewer people, except now we have a difficulty slider to give it longevity.
Theyâve been trying to solve the equation for years. Kara in TBC, the OG troll raids, wotlk rolling 10m out for each raid. Scaling difficulty with heroic eventually being added. Backwards capability in cata when they rolled out LFR to get more life out of the art and story assets.
Forums need to come to terms that sunwell only is not a sustainable business model. The 95% pay the bills, the 5% create the carrot on a stick for us to try and achieve the top most play.
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Raiding to me has become pretty stale and frankly I dont have the same amount of time as I had 15 years ago. Most of us are grown individuals now. So I fit in a few M+ runs a week and call it good.
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I said IN GENERAL. I have Algethar Puzzle Box which is better than Whispering Incarnate Icon. But those Raid trinkets are better in general than most trinkets like Eye of Skovald and Horn of Valour.
Raiding is boring to alot. keys came out something new why wouldnât more people do it. The constant whining from most the player base I have do everything is why it will probably be many yrs before we actually get a new endgame in wow again.
Thinking M+ is easier from a difficulty perspective than raid is a good joke. If you want 405 pieces from M+, youâre doing content that is much harder than anything in Heroic raid. M+ requires much more individual responsibility to keep yourself alive and abide by mechanics compared to raid where you can just get carried.
The only avenue where M+ rewards are higher relative to content difficulty is your vault slot at the end of the week. Even then, if you want a 421 piece you need to complete 20 keys, which is just as challenging as doing mythic raid bosses.
The only thing that impacts raid negatively is a bad raid. Fortunately, voti has been quite good on all difficulties.
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Being able to convert dungeon gear to tier gear has killed raiding completely. Now you only raid to clear it once and then never stepping foot inside the raid ever again. All gear now comes from mythic+.
No, Iâm making the point that if youâre wanting gear progression thatâs how it happens. If you want 418 craft stones you need to go beyond the scope of heroic content. If youâre wanting mythic tier gear, you need to play beyond the scope of âwell thereâs 13 of us because Jakeâs girlfriend got off early from work this time and we can raid for 2 hours before Tommy has to put his kid to bed so letâs go do heroic!â
I still hold that gear in both potency, abundancy, and ease of acquisition from VoTI is way, way, way higher than M+. Thereâs a reason why world first racers spam normal/heroic for gear buy runs instead of M+ loot stack runs.
What is killing raiding is Blizzardâs unwillingness to change how things work. You put all difficulties of raiding into LFR with single boss queues and people will raid. Why? Less time commitment, they can do it whenever they have time, they arenât locked into an instance that someone else might clear when they arenât around, and they donât need to join a big guild just to have the bodies to do it.
M+ isnât even a great gamemode, itâs just more flexible time/people-wise. Iâd rather raid than do M+, but I donât have the time to commit to it regularly.
As far as only doing the raid once, isnât that fine? Is there a reason you MUST farm a raid if youâve already proven you can complete it? Thatâs one of the things being fought over right now since this new upgrade system forces people to farm M+ at 17+. People donât like farming hard stressful content theyâve done before, especially if you donât get much to show for your time. Again this is something that Blizzard needs to get with the times and change up systems.
While thats true for the first week or two of raid (maybe) after that it swaps to m+. I mean just look at my gear for instance. Even my raid items came from m+ or m+ vault.
Gearing now is 10x as fast in m+ vs raid. I think that making raid gear upgradeable the same as m+ would help abit too. Id also love for raid bonuss rolls to come back.
One: I donât see why your gear at this point is relevant⌠At this point in the patch cycle you (the royal you, I donât mean you, Silpher, specifically) could be clearing mythic raiding and have never touched a M+, still be 420~ ilvl and be full bis.
Two: If you needed to gear a new guildmate in full greens for mythic raiding Tuesday, and they hit 70 today⌠Youâre not going into M+. Youâre going to normal VOTI â Heroic VOTI â Mythic and feed them a literal hundred items to juice up with. Then you can target farm the one-off piece of M+ gear they didnât get and valor juice it.
Time-wise comparatively⌠Itâs significantly harder to carry a wasted spot in higher keys than it is to carry a wasted spot in normal/heroic VOTI. Then figure itâs ~6 hours for 3 full VOTI clears with the person getting over a hundred chances at items all defaulted⌠Versus, letâs say you need the feather trinket from Nok. Thatâs what, 5 noks? not to mention needing a group/keys/carries/etc in 6 hours? Then figure only 2 people get drops per clear, the loot pool has a handful of useless items you donât need on it, and youâre very unlikely to be fed it from pugs? But, letâs say that⌠at some point in that 6 hours⌠you do in fact get it. You now have to spend between 1k and 3k valor to upgrade it to heroic VOTI level â because again, youâre in full greens you arenât pushing 10-20 keys⌠At 135(+65) per zone⌠Thatâs days for one item⌠Versus 6 hours for potentially hundreds and full bis chances 3 times in a row.
Thereâs no comparison. Raiding provides non-subjectively dramatically more gear, more gear chances, and faster gearing options for players. M+ allows you to target farm specific items to make up the gap, or to have a gear progression path for if you donât have people to raid with or donât like raiding. It also lets you play as an individual on your own terms, at your own time, with your own agency â which is huge. Thatâs the biggest bonus M+ has. I can get home from work early, and go do some M+. I can casually grind some while I finish paperwork. I can choose my commitment level at all times.
I personally hated the coin slot machine system. I wouldnât mind seeing it reworked to like, âget 1 coin a week, spend 5 coins to guarantee a specific item on killâ type deal though.
Yea but i could have had this gear what week 2? It was like 2 weeks in that some people were doing 20s. Raids can also only be done once a week where m+ is infinite. The amount of drops isnt really comparable.
Also your pointing twords mythic guilds that each player has multiple toons ready to go so doing raid is faster. Thats not even remotely the normal so cant be applied to the wider population.
The devs even admitted that the forge thing was the best way to get the set. Not raid. The best of which came from vault or m+ upgrades with valor.
At an average of 30 minutes per zone (once invited, zoned in, and started) - with loot on average every third zone⌠youâre looking at one piece per 90 minutes. Iâm bad at math, so weâre gonna say one an hour. This is more likely one every two hours due to keys, mobility, group finding, apply/decline/accept, âoh no that guys in greens letâs leaveâ, etc. But, Iâm gonna be courteous and say one hour. This doesnât take into account any⌠problematic servers, or persons⌠who blow up keys on purpose. This is assuming 100% success rates.
Thatâs one hundred hours of gameplay to get items equal to that of a triple VOTI clear. I would seriously doubt the average gamer is grinding over four full 24 hour cycle days a week. This also completely discounts things like duplicate drops, unneeded items, etc â as that would be a presence in both avenues.
I would say subjectively making a character, grinding conquest, and getting 3v3 carried to 1800 for full 398 instantly would be faster than M+ for gearing up a new toon. 1800 is easy, particularly if youâve got some sweaty friends.
Nope. Wasnât talking multiple toons/etc. One toon, one person, one guild. Raid normal, raid heroic, raid mythic. One person, one toon, one raid composition. Youâre confusing earlier when I mentioned world first multi-raid feeder runs. Iâm talking a regular ole Joe.
The devs admitted that the catalyst was the best way to get the set, because you can upgrade any item. Including VOTI non-tier gear, PvP gear, and M+ gear. Yeah, of course itâs the best. In what universe would having 4 times the availability to upgrade for set bonuses not be the best way to get a set bonus? Weâre not talking a 4 piece, weâre talking 15 total equipped items. But even if we were, yeah⌠duh?
also, nobody cleared a +15 week 2. let alone a 20. Even if they were, the breakpoint for heroic raiding is +16âs, not 15s.
Oh boy here we go again, Another Raider andy complaining about Mythic+ By golly Lets go through the checklist shall we?
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âMythic + Bad Raid gud topicâ
Pre post conclusion, This is another Raider andy that hates that people arenât forced to raid because his favourite content raiding is dying out due to it being archaic and not actually that complicated.
Actually it was brought in as an ALTERNATIVE to raiding and has remained as such for the entirety of itâs existence, itâs the followup to Challenge modes wich were the precursor for it and launched in Mists and then followed on in WoD but timer based content isnât actually that new to WoW we have had timed runs and Timed mechanics in the game since Vanilla
The concept of M+ is simple, Deal with an ever increasing amount of mechanics with an infinitely scalable system that is harder on the individual than most mythic raid bosses are, As such itâs been a massive success due to itâs drop in drop out nature, Scalable difficulty choices and bite sized morcels of content compared to the bemmotth that is raiding that takes HOURS to do even if everyone does it perfectly and requires little individual responsibility.
Mythic+ has kept all those Raider only andy heroic AOTC guilds alive because the M+ crew within that guild otherwise carries the Raider only Andies that are actually not that good, It also provides them with enough gear to bruteforce AOTC.
Players spend weeks, Even months perfecting their timed runs in M+ you donât get to 3k rating overnight.
Vanilla through to Wrath, 80% of the difficulty imposed by raids wasnât mechanics or strats, It was managing the roster, vanilla and BC proved this when you can and could very easily do 40/25 man raids with less than 40/25 people early on in the tier without issues, There is also the fact that BC introduced 10 man raids, wrath accelerated that and Cata had them as-well and they were wildly popular.
Mists introduced flexible raid group sizes and the 10 man teams slowly dissappeared wich made up a LOT of raiding teams despite offering less loot, 10 man was over-all considered harder for many bosses.
Raids up until cataclysm were a test of Patience, I know i was at the peak of the raiding world in a top 20 team and most of it was just waiting for the last person to finally understand it and then hopefully not get juked by RNGjesus
Raiding has remained the same, Whatâs changed is that people who were forced to raid and no longer need to raid have stopped raiding.
And more difficult than most bosses when done at itâs highest level.
This is a good thing, Guilds are a thing of the past.
The rewards match the difficulty, Deal with it.
because they match the difficulty
Raiding is unappealing to many by itâs very nature, Those people migrated instantly to M+ and never looked back, You arenât going to get them back we are never coming back, If you destroy M+ we will just leave the game.
Everything in this game is individualistic, All the way back to Vanilla
M+ has vastly higher strategies that get intricately and infinitely more complex the higher up the number goes, Iâm sorry dear darling but heroic raiding isnât that complex and the first half of mythic vaults can be done by pug groups who have known eachother for five minutes.
Individual performance is important in raid, And players focus on their own abilities and performance in a raid group, itâs why parsing is such a huge thing in the raider community.
The only Divide here is Raider only andies demanding that Raids be the be all and end all.
We get 10 dungeons an expansion, you get 3-5 Raids depending on the expansion, We get one mega dungeon split into two (To make 9 and 10) in the middle of an expansion, Thatâs it.
Far harder, But your too busy hiding on a classic alt to reveal the fact that your key score is absolute dogwater.
Raids have been consistently bigger and better with the exception of sanctum being awful all round but thats because shadowlands was awful.
It literally saved the game due to giving a large part of the player base something they liked doing, Something to do.
Raiding was already unappealing to these people, Destroying M+ isnât going to make them come back to raiding, itâs just going to make them leave the game.
The only rift is between everyone else and raider only andies that demand M+ not be as good, So⌠You and everyone else.
Yeah nah, We are fine as is.
It isnât rotting.
Circling back to the Pre-post Conclusion to now bring you the end of post Conclusion.
Raider only andy is upset his content isnât mandatory for everyone.
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Itâs a time thing.
I donât always have several hours to sit down with a large group and slog away at a huge raid. Even longer if I need to form said group and wait for it to fill.
M+ has a shorter time limit, and less people to herd into an instance. It doesnât demand as much of my time and I like it for that.
Raiding is fun but I donât often have that huge block of uninterrupted time in my schedule.
They shouldnât give anything higher than heroic raid gear to mythic+ players. Mythic raid gear for mythic+ is not right imo
The problem with M+ is that you can organize your friends into it and ignore the rest of the player base.
There is no fixing the rift in this player base. It is literally over. The game isnât dead, no, but the toxic player base is done for.
Good luck ever having the desire or will power to play with these people lmao. But sure, if you already have 4 IRL friends, then it doesnât matter, you can safely ignore everyone else in the game, indefinitely, literally no reason to interact with anyone whatsoever.
The pug scene is very healthy atm.
Probably the most healthy itâs been in a while.
Itâs debatable if itâs healthy. I guarantee if I resubbed right now, I wouldnât be able to get into any M+ pugs because of my ilvl. I dunno if Iâd call that healthy.
The definition of healthy is up in the air unless you have some stats or screenshots or proof to show me. I can only go by my own experience in this game.