I’m not a big Mythic+ fan, I just don’t like the pressure of a time-gated mad dash to the finish line with pack and boss mechanics on a constant 15-30 minute stream of go-go-go action… So I don’t really partake in the content. I want to be clear, I don’t want Mythic+ being removed or changed, just the rewards balanced with the difficulty as compared to other content that grant the same rewards
I have many guildies who run M+ dungeons and complete at least 1 15+ every week (a few finish enough to unlock all 3 vault rewards) and this is great for them! Now when it comes to vault rewards on the weekly basis, after 3 weeks some of them have mythic level raid gear when I know for a fact they could never pray for a chance to complete Mythic raid bosses.
Here’s 2 pieces of tangible information that, I think, are directly understandable for the difficulty of completing +15s for the top gear vs completing 3 mythic raid boss kills
According to raider. io, a total of 2291 guilds with 1 mythic boss kill and 554 with 3. This means 45,800 players have had a chance of getting 1 piece of mythic gear from a source and only 11,080 (at most) have gotten a guaranteed 252 in their vault from the raid.
Compared to Mythic+:
446,000 players* have completed at least 1 Mythic keystone of level 15+, giving them the 252 vault reward as well.
I’m not 100% certain how raider. io does their calculations, and if that is just the unique character/dungeon, that would result in 24,777 at an absolute minimum (being assuming all 446,000 records are all players who completed all dungeons at a +15
(before #2, I want to clarify that I am not supporting carrying or getting carried, just using it as a reference for financial value to compare difficulty of content)
Look at the cash value of a carry, this is an economical way of looking at the difficulty of each piece of content. How much does it cost to get carried for the different Great Vault rewards.
Mythic Raid: This is obviously not in available yet, but I was able to find it on pre-order currently listed at $2,000 for the full raid so let’s take 1/5 of that for their 3-boss base since the first 3 are easier = $400
Mythic + 15: $93 for a single +15 dungeon this is found on a few of the sellers’ sites
PvP: (for pvp gearing, we’ll say the pvp activated ilvl 253 which would only be rank 4) to be carried to about 1800, it costs between $200 - $280
In conclusion, there is a dramatically significant difference in the skill to gear reward for Mythic raid gear versus Mythic+ dungeon gear, even though they have the same ilvl reward. This is demonstrated by both the quantity of players that have achieved those rewards (as reported by raider. io) and the monetary value of each piece of content.
A single +15 doesn’t give as much loot as 3 mythic raid bosses. And you can never get higher than a single +15.
Mythic+ will always ever only give you 1 piece of 252 per week, no matter how good you are, no matter how much you do, you will never be able to earn more than 1 piece of 252 loot per week.
Not to mention that 6 of the slots on your paper-doll are locked to SoD gear anyways, which means that M+ loot is even worse than it was last tier.
Imagine actually arguing that M+ loot is “better” when you have no progression past what is essentially Ahead of the Curve. Do try and actually argue that you would be happy if raids didn’t drop gear in Mythic and were capped at the rewards for AOTC, and that “Well, AOTC is easy and the rewards cap at AOTC, so you should be happy that you can get strong easy rewards”.
If you’re asking for my personal opinion, I would gladly trade 252 loot from the cache for 252 Valor Upgrades and a dynamic Valor cap that scales with your Blizzard IO, more akin to PvP, as well as Mythic+ only set bonuses.
Your overvaluing the ilvl tbh. Raid gear is still much better than M+ gear and raid will continue to be the best way to get high ilvl gear. M+ mostly just supplements that. Yes completing a single 15 is easier than completing 3 mythic raid bosses but those 3 mythic raid bosses can also give you 252 loot while the dungeons never can. If you just run dungeons you will get a maximum of one 252 piece a week. You will never get more than 1 and you will often get redundant pieces that mean you get zero. If you run raid you have the chance to get much more loot since every boss kill gives you the same ilvl loot as end of dungeon. In addition raid loot is often just better than dungeon loot. The last 2 bosses give outright higher ilvl gear than anything you can ever get from M+. Not only that but we also have Dom sockets right now which are strictly better than dungeon gear and completely invalidate them. Every class in the game just has 5 slots right now where dungeon gear is an actual liability in those slots since it can prevent you from getting socket bonuses.
Correct, I don’t push cutting edge so comparing a single +15 vs 3 mythic raid bosses isn’t exact.
There are significant parallels though outside of the domination gear (the domination gear, I’ll give you does have a power advantage that is only obtainable via raiding)
There are still trinkets and other stat-only pieces that the raid-provided ones are far from best-in-slot, regardless of content. Maybe the answer isn’t adjusting M+ to be more difficult (I think a 15 this season is still too easy), but the pieces from the raid that are NOT specifically powerful like domination gear or from the last 2 bosses are not strong enough. I just look at trinkets from raid and according to warcraftlogs and raidbots, very few classes’ BIS trinkets, neck pieces, rings, cloaks, boots, etc come from the raid.
I just want to be clear to OP - you are completely on the wrong side of this. M+ right now is “losing”. It isn’t winning. Raid gear is way better than M+ gear in 9.1. By the end of the tier, less than half the gear top M+ players wear will actually come from M+.
They’re still 252 loot. They’re just as capable of M+ loot give or take some slight stat preferences. This idea that every single piece on your stat sheet must come from the raid or M+ is too good is a joke. What a stupid opinion to have. Thankfully you aren’t the lead dev. Your opinions on this game are truly terrible and ill-conceived.
I agree, the rewards from those bosses vs what is available in M+ is fair, but things like the neck pieces or weapon drops (excluding hunter)
I certainly hope you’re right, but from what I’ve been seeing, this will only apply to people pushing for higher ratings over 15s and in Mythic raiding and will not apply to the more casual playerbase pushing for AOTC.
I never said it was too difficult, I said I don’t like the 15-30 minute pressure windows, I’ve completed plenty of 15s in previous seasons and just don’t feel like repeating the same dungeons again. I mean, Torghast is harder than a +15 this season!
4 Dom Sockets (Cor, Bek, Dyz ,Kyr), Jaithys, Old Warrior’s Soul, that’s at least 6 pieces. Possibly ring and amulet too given that we’re getting to the point stat-wise where soft-cap diminishing returns set in and it is actually worthwhile to equip the thing that gives you the highest raw stats (higher ilvl) in some pieces regardless of stat priority with only minor exceptions for very bad stats for your spec. 6-8 pieces from the raid… that’s a lot of raid loot for a M+ template.
Domination sockets make up for the difference between raiding and M+.
M+ is the “accessible to everyone” part of the game and is still the primary source of loot for the majority of people ingame. It’s a lot easier to pug random 5 people than to organize a 20 man raid roster with constant rotations.
Maybe the problem is general gear acquisition and not the vault?
They already ruined pvp vendors, so not sure why you want to ruin this. Maybe push for more profession gear and better drop rates off raid bosses instead of ruining one of the only good bits?
You have a good point, and I tried to mention that in the original post - I don’t want the Mythic+ scene to be ruined because I don’t enjoy it, I just want equal opportunity to get the same ilvl gear, which does not exist unless I get into Mythic raiding which has an extremely significant higher skill ceiling for both myself and my group.
