So what’s the other choice if my guild is inactive and I have no friends?
You seem to think that as the group leader of a temporary party in a game there’s a lot that the leader can do.
I just dislike the “Your key, your problem” mentality.
Imagine if there were punishments for players who left, groupleaders could quite literally hold their group hostage even if the group is wiping nearly every trash pack and boss, players could try and bait people into their group with the intention of getting carried because they know if players leave they can just report them.
Your best course of action is to bring friends or guildies and not pug the keys, if this isn’t an option you can add players from pug runs that performed well and you got along with to form a network of players you trust. You should also make use of raider io if you’re not already, it won’t tell you if a player is likely to leave but if they have a lot of keys completed on time I personally found them to be the most dependable.
Make friends…
There are literally millions of people in the game. Join the M+ discord. Make a forum post looking for other people who want to do keys the way you want to do them. Post in trade chat. Find an active guild with people that do keys and see if you can join them. You don’t have to leave your guild or join theirs, you just need to find people doing keys.
There is a lot the leader can do. You have 100% control over who you invite. Use it. In addition to using IO, talk to the people you invite. Find out why they want to do your key before you start. Someone who is looking for a particular piece of gear is more likely to stay if things get rougher than someone who just needs to time that dungeon for an io boost. Someone who just wants to complete a 15 for the week is more likely to stay than someone who has already completed higher keys on time.
Lead a discussion between the people you’ve invited to make sure everyone agrees on the route ahead of time so they can’t argue about it mid-key. Make sure everyone has discussed and agreed on a general order for interrupts when necessary, how the group plans to handle the affixes and any dungeon specific issues. Getting that handled beforehand means less of a chance of arguing about it while the clock ticks down.
I really dislike the “My key, but it’s everyone else’s problem” mentality.
YOu must have bad luck. I haven’t had any issues with anyone leaving a mythic + key yet, even after being in a bad group with 20+ deaths.
Wow ok. Anymore tips?
You’re really driving in this “luck” thing haha. (Not trying to be mean at all 
) Third post I’ve seen about luck from you!
I don’t get the logic, other games have this punishment feature. Why should wow be any different? If I invite you and you ruin my key, you get to get away with it? What? That’s like me inviting you to my house and you steal things but I shouldn’t call the cops because its my fault for inviting you.
I think if you do leave you should have a debuff. You are ruining someone else’s experience. What’s wrong with you waiting 30 minutes to start another key?
Take League of Legends rank for example, I’m a diamond 1 player, if a I leave in the middle of a rank game I would be penalized. Real life or not, it doesn’t matter you get punished. No complaints there, I fail to see why WOW has this backwards system. Just my IMO. This turns people away from the game, it’s a wild wild west mentality I think.
I can see where you’re coming from. Overwatch has a similar system where if you leave you get punished. However, there’s an element to both of these games that doesn’t apply to WoW which is that there is not an option to exclusively create a group and vet who goes into it.
League, like OW, has a random queue where if you don’t have a full party then a random person fills a spot. WoW is not similar and requires you to form a full group before you can do the content.
Furthermore, League is a pvp game. You’re playing against other players and penalties are given because it would be incredibly detrimental to players in a competition if there are leavers. It ruins the experience of both sides of the competition. There is also a rating system which judges skill levels and leavers are directly impacting the skill levels of other players on their teams. I’m not a league player, but in Overwatch the penalties for leaving a quick match are nearly non-existent. Rated play is the only heavily regulated mode which involves harsh penalties for leaving.
This is contrary to WoW in pve element. Not every group goes in with the full capability of finishing the dungeon, whether they know it or not. It could be skill based, ilvl based, and even mechanically based. There are no repercussions to a dungeon being incomplete besides wasted time, but that is the inherent risk with dungeons in a one-sided competition in pve.
It’s not a wild west mentality. Blizzard is not forcing you to participate with random people with M+ dungeons, they are allowing group leaders to decide what’s best for them and allowing the freedom of choice.
You are suggesting that Blizzard should dictate what is good player behavior with why someone left and what isn’t.
I’m suggesting that there are two sides to every situation and all of the reasons are incredibly subjective. Putting penalties on people leaving would be short-sighted and open up way more issues with controversy between players than simply not penalizing it.
While true you don’t have to form your own group in league (you can), the two sides also applies to the person who signed up. Like in pvp focused games, you chose to queue, you chose to sign up for that group. No one is forcing that player to sign up. Mythic dungeons are frankly in my opinion competitive (five players are working together to beat the timer), there is a raider IO system that functions similarly as an elo system (people are vetted based on a score). Sure you’re fighting against bots, but it’s still considered a competitive experience by Blizzard it even has a competitive scene.
If it isn’t competitive, then raider io shouldn’t be a thing. If you’re vetting, you view the process as being competitive. You are looking for the best players.
The keyholder does lose, his/her key goes down. They lose out because they get a lower chance of getting gear and having to do the same dungeon again. I think at the very least there should be discussions around it. BGs, Arenas all have punishment systems in place. Why should Mythic dungeons beyond 10 be any different.
You’re confusing competitive and competition. Of course mythic plus are competitive, but I’m saying competition related to the pvp aspect involving two different sides. Mythic plus is a competition that’s a group versus a goal, League/pvp is a group versus another group. Both are competitive but one is group v. group which affects how leavers are treated. You’re not ruining the bots experience if a person leaves the group in a M+.
You can form your own group in league, but it’s not required like it is in M+. You can’t just go in with 3 players and 2 more show up. It’s an essential part of the process which includes vetting player before they join.
Raider IO is a good thing because it helps add more to a group leader’s decision making. Consider it a deterrent for undergeared/performing players to not join more competitive groups. However, there’s a large difference between a +16 key and a +8 key. When you’re talking about competitive natures of M+, it’s almost more competitive for +8 keys simply because there are more players queuing for those compared to a +16 (or higher) which have a certain benchmark for success.
It’s more competitive for a vetting process for M+ than a pvp game. You simply need the required SR and you are at least in the running for joining a group in most cases for pvp games. But that does not mean that you need to have harsher penalties… it means that you have more of a responsibility to form better groups.
Yes and this is the inherent risk that comes along with the freedom of being able to create and form your own groups. That’s why there is no penalty system in place because you are given the freedom and that freedom creates risk. That’s also why there’s a dungeon deserter debuff for random heroics and not one for M+. Random implies lack of choice and removes the inherent risk with creating your own groups. Freedom puts that risk onto the person forming the group and removes the automation (including penalties) for those groups. It’s the very nature of autonomy.
Again, this is directly correlated to your league comparison. You are affecting the game play of two different groups in a pvp setting. If someone leaves in a pvp setting, it affects both sides of the competition.
I’d also argue that a 10 minute deserter debuff is not a very steep deterrent for people leaving RBGs… people still leave and don’t look back.
I just don’t buy that argument, because you have four other players, it’s not really relevant if you’re going against another person or not, the fact is you signed up to be in a group. You are in a group trying to reach a goal just like in league you are in a group trying to reach a goal. You are ruining the experience of the other people with you, this is a fact. They lose time and they lose the key they worked towards.
While that may be true because of the nature of how groups of formed in these games, you still are signing up for that group. There is an expectation that you wish to complete a dungeon, just like there is an expectation that you are playing to win a rank game. Yeah, raider io still functions like an elo system, people are vetted on their experience, in custom groups in league people are chosen based on their elo. Especially in tournaments. We’re talking about punishments, there are no punishments for leaving a group in a mythic dungeon and I think it’s unethical.
The problem is no matter how you word it, someone is being affected by the leave, freedom doesn’t mean the absence of consequence. Debuff is better than nothing.
You’re not considering the nature of the situations. In both cases leavers are an issue, but in only one case does a leaver affect the nature of the scenarios which for a pvp match is a competition against another team. The purpose of a pvp match is to go against someone of a roughly similar skill level. When someone leaves in a pvp match it ruins the entire purpose of the match for both sides. One team is down a person and the other team isn’t getting good competition because the other team is down a player. Since that is the purpose of a pvp match, the game at it’s core is effected since the purpose is for similar skill levels to face off.
PVE affects one side. Bots are not affected by someone leaving. A leaver in a M+ means one side was not able to complete the dungeon in one way or another and that is part of the challenge of M+.
Right but it also comes with the understanding that you’re going to get a random person if you have an incomplete group and their values/playstyle might not align with the group you’ve made. As a result, a penalty is enforced to remove that risk of a player leaving. Compared to an M+ group which the goals should be determined beforehand.
When it comes to fully pre-made groups in league, I revert to the first point made which is that it ruins the experience of how the game is intended to be played at a core level; an uneven skill level and deteriorated competitive experience.
But you fail to comprehend that people leave for different reasons and those that leave have their own side of the story.
Out of the leavers that I’ve had in my pug experience throughout the last few days, I had one person leave because the group was absolutely horrific and another one leave because his sister got into a car accident. In both of those cases, I do not blame the person who left. Yet, enforcing penalties would vilify and punish both of those players.
The fact is, the player who left because of the group was having a bad experience and I do not believe someone should be penalized for having a bad experience in WoW. The cases of people leave are subjective and people have a different understanding behind the choices of leaving.
Here’s an example of a leaver that would be subjective, but in my opinion, justified:
A tank in SotS didn’t pull the pack behind the first boss and we wiped due to someone back pulling. A DPS took at as a reason to berate this tank for making a minor mistake. He told him that he was a terrible tank, how bad of a player he was, and just a lot of uncalled for things to say for such a small mistake.
The tank left the group.
If a penalty system was enforced, the choice would be the tank either:
- Stays in the group with the toxic DPS player
- Takes a penalty because they do not want to be in a group with that toxic player
Do you believe that either of these options should be something a player faces? I do not and I firmly believe that this happens more often than people understand. Furthermore, I believe that it is better to have the freedom of choice when it comes to creating groups and leaving them when it comes to M+.
When you enforce penalties in groups it removes the subjective nature of a disagreement like I demonstrated above. Blizzard would be blindly penalizing players and it would cause a lot of issues for people who leave due to legitimate reasons. This means more tickets, reports, and overall ruined satisfaction from playing the game. That’s more work for everyone and an even more waste of time than just getting over it and moving on. Blizzard should not be the decider in disputes for mythic + that automatically side with a group of people just because one left. It’s far too subjective and does not take away from the core of the game like leaving a pvp match would.
The same subjective can apply to league games, you think all people who leave league games are bad assailants? No, but that is the risk of leaving. It doesn’t matter again if you’re going against bots or other players, both experiences are ruined. I see what you’re trying to get at, but the I feel like the argument doesn’t really hold water. There are other multiplayer games where you do get punished for leaving a pve environment. You know what you’re signing up for when you sign up. It goes back to the main point, is it ethical or unethical to leave a dungeon key. We just disagree.
I’ve DC’d and been kicked from Mythics. I’ve seen people quit Mythics when they realized we wouldn’t beat the timer. There are going to be legitimate reasons people leave and there are going to be jerks. I’d like to see the jerks punioshed, but I’m going to err on the side of compassion here.
What do you consider a jerk?
The Tank who just said, “F it, I’m not wasting another 20-30 minutes here” and quit the +7. Why did he do this? Because I accidently pulled some trash mobs that we didn’t need to kill. He further went out of his way to personally insult me before I ignored him.
THAT’S the kind of elitism newer players are complaining about. If you don’t play 100% perfectly they rage quit. It’s just a game, get a grip and play it. With the world recovering from a pandemic - and the U.S. still in the midst of it due to a number of factors - some kindness and understanding go a long way. I messed up. I owed up to it. I apologized. The tank still rage quit and insulted me. I feel like crap, the keyholder is SOL, and he gets to join another group and be an elitist jerk there, too.
Back in WotLK if you quit a RDF or didn’t respond to a queue popping, you weren’t allowed to queue again for an amount of time. I am surprised this minor level of punishment doesn’t exist in BfA.
And how will you ensure any punishment system blizzard implement will be 100% safe from abuse /misuse?
It mostly still does, if you leave queued content early you get a 30? minute debuff.
By implementing safeguards and testing, it’s called protecting the integrity of the game.
And what will they be? Every person asking for this system says there will be something but no one ever offers suggestions for a 100% foolproof system.