Mythic+, Delves, and Gear

Community General Discussion
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I’ve seen a quite a few complaints about M+, Delves, and gearing related to both. I think there are a few changes that might make for a better overall system and alleviate some of the frustration of gearing.

Gear:
What’s the point of having tracks of gear i.e. Champion, Heroic, Mythic? The only purpose this seems to serve is to require you to farm for the same piece that dropped in a lower difficulty. They still require you to earn crests and stones to upgrade all the way to the very max. My suggestion would be to get rid of “tracks” (or just keep them for crafted items) and just have an upgrade path with crests and stones. You could still acquire higher ilvl pieces from higher content and vault that could potentially be an upgrade or get a socket or tertiary stat.

Mythic + :
I personally don’t hate where mythic plus is at the moment but, from the amount of forum posts and other social media I see, it seems there’s a fair number of people who don’t love it this way. My suggestion after hearing a lot of the feedback would first be to design the dungeons like older ones, for example have an enrage or soft enrage on the boss and trash that’s a little harder to deal with (honestly kind of think the trash part is pretty well covered now). The scaling would be the same for the different levels and you can complete them in your own time, healer has to run to the door - no problem, tank has to let dogs out - all good, had a couple nasty wipes because of a d/c or shotty connection - happens. Vault and gear would still drop the same as it does now.
Keystones would stay, they would be the optional way to run with a timer. I think this way would first of all help with separating people who are only there to time and don’t care about loot/crests from those who want to complete the dungeon at a less stressful pace. I think making the loot from completing a keystone be more likely (guaranteed at higher levels?) to have sockets or tertiary stats would be an acceptable reward difference. Having a small difference would make them still desirable to run for gear and have a chance at a nice upgrade for those that like to min/max.
Keystones could also be tied to a separate achievement that I would suggest be cosmetic (not player power driven, think Pandaria challenge mode gear). I think this would help like-minded players getting into groups together more frequently and thus leading to fewer players leaving group or getting upset with each other.

Delves :
Honestly I think delves are fine. I might just say maybe let them drop higher crests so one could eventually level gear to max, maybe at a higher tier. I keep seeing people say delve loot is too good but have a full delve vault of 8’s which leads me to believe there’s a lot of people not doing 11’s. I personally think 11’s present a pretty big challenge so I would have zero issue with them dropping higher level crests but I’d be open to getting more tiers regardless.

I’d like to add most of the feedback I see is wrapped around gear, specifically how others obtain it. I’m not sure why players being able to get higher gear from different avenues affects others so much. I know I could care less if Johnny runs delves exclusively and after 12 weeks is decked out in max level gear. If your concern is that you feel “forced” to do the content I’d just say that’s all on how you approach the game. If you want to min/max to the absolute limit I’d say expect to do a lot to get there (running delves, dungeons, raids, and even pvp), that’s kind of the point I would think.

Maybe this isn’t perfect but, I think it could be a start to making the game more enjoyable for more of the player base instead of different segments arguing over who’s way of playing is the right way.

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The problem is if you shift the rewards to Delves at the highend too, then all of that community starts demanding changes to Delves. Then the intended audience of Delves gets altered and the content gets shifted just like it has with dungeons towards this esports nonsense and ruins it.

Dungeons used to be much simpler and more fun to run, especially when they released new ones that dropped gear on par with the last raid and as a step up to the current one. Then they turned it into a weird challenge mode, ultra hard, esportsish thing and expected the community to be able to pug it. It now causes more drama than even any heroic cata pug in the dungeon queue did back when that was controversial. But it is what it is now and became its own endgame alternative, mostly.

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My only issue with any of it is my BIS trinkets come from M+, even though I only raid and I hate M+. I only do fungal folly delve at this point as its the easiest for me, and while I do sort of enjoy delves it obviously becomes stale unless I break my 8 across 2-3 days.

I am around 615 ilvl but finally feel like I outgear the lower keys so I started doing some this week.

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The point is to prevent players from farming low level content to get the item. We saw this behavior when Valor for upgrading just M+ items. Very high level players would farm +2 keys, making it much harder for the players who actually needed those levels of keys to get in since group leaders happily took the overgeared players instead.

And this would probably be even worse if the actual items could be farmed from lower content since those would require specific keys rather than just any 2 someone happens to be holding.

This basically changes the fabric of what M+ is. The timer, for all the complaints people throw at it, is a pivotal part of the mode. It forces players to manage limited resources in the most efficient way, leading to much of the appeal for many players who enjoy pushing the content up. While I don’t really subscribe to the concert of people sitting around waiting for lust every pull, I do think it would be common for players to wait on shorter cooldowns every pull. Such a thing is already possible if groups decide to ignore the timer; but teams that care about the reward from timing the dungeon have to use more of their toolkit to overcome the challenge rather than this brute force method.

Also, I really don’t think you want harder trash. Trash is the biggest reason teams run into problems, at least as you get higher up the key levels. The bosses are usually the least interesting parts of the dungeons; it’s the way trash is pulled and dealt with that makes or breaks the key. Making trash harder would increase failure rate in M+.

Lastly, I would caution against using forum and social media posts as a barometer for player sentiment. A small minority of players will ever participate in those places to talk about a video game. And then even amongst that minority, it’s far more likely for humans to complain about things they dislike than praise the things they like. So you’re likely to see a disproportionate amount of negative feedback from a small segment of the population. Many M+ players are happy knocking out keys in game rather than posting their gripes with the system outside the game. Making drastic changes to an existing game mode based on a self-selected group of players predisposed to negativity risks alienating the core audience for the mode.

While I agree with your premise overall, and especially when looking at the ceiling for gear across each mode, I do think there are some problems with the stepping-stone gear to reach that ceiling. Bountiful T8 delves are significantly easier than a +6 key yet give the same reward. For a player who won’t reach beyond a +6 key, this isn’t a problem. For a player that will reach beyond a +6 key and for which gaining lower gear is essentially just a prerequisite, the gearing stage becomes a chore to which many will choose the path of least resistance.

The players who are upset delves allow players to get heroic raid geared do need to stop worrying about what gear other players can get. Players who feel “forced” to farm delves for gear also do need to look inward at least a little since that feeling is social in nature, not just game design. But there is a legitimate gripe for the players who don’t get much out of lower level content besides the gear required to survive/perform in the content they are capable of doing; the gear shouldn’t be so skewed at that low end toward one form of content.

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I definitely see what you’re saying. I would just say that if the party lead is going to invite an overgeared player to the group they may prefer to get through quick. Also, if we did have separate modes and a mode specifically where a player can just set what level of M+ (the same as if you were entering a delve) there probably wouldn’t be many overgeared players “taking spots” because they don’t need to rely on a key to be able to farm that item. If the loot did indeed have a better chance to have a desirable difference such as a socket for doing a key then yeah you might run into a little competition but at that point you’re creeping into the territory of min/maxing so i don’t know that it’ll have the same effect as you’re mentioning.

A player starting out could just opt to jump into keys(timed) if they wanted but they’d have the option to jump into something slower and have a somewhat parallel gearing path with the timed variant offering a slightly better/more optimized version of that same gear path.

Oh yeah I’m one of those players. However I do know a few of the other type that don’t participate or who have stopped playing as a result. I’m not suggesting that be the sole reason to revamp something that has been working well for a few expansions. Keep in mind though that M+ has had some fairly drastic shifts in how it was implemented through all the expansions it’s been present. I completely agree, social media is a poor sample size to make judgements for the reasons you mentioned. I do think though that with not only the seemingly large increase in complaints as well as just the number of M+ completed every week does signal a trend of disinterest in the content. Ultimately Blizzard have their internal numbers and statistics that give a far better understanding of what the climate is like, I however am limited to what little resources are made public.

I think overall you have some good points. I would say people running things how they want is something we should all be fine with. If we can have separate modes to facilitate everyone having some avenue to a meaningful endgame I can’t see that doing much damage to the current population of participating players.

Sure if we had an untimed version could people take longer waiting on things like minor CDs to be available probably. We could have people stopping to switch specs per Boss or large group pull (This was an argument against swappable talents when they first changed talent trees to the select one of three variant). I’m not sure that would really hurt the timed versions of said runs though. As with the current M+, timers would be set according to the dungeon and what difficulty the mobs, pathing and bosses pose.

This is true. Most players will just find out what’s easier to get and get it that way. I’m not sure that’ll ever change. I do think that while delves are easier for those that do M+ and raid I’d also say consider there are still players who can’t participate or who have constraints/disabilities that also play the game. I think that only because a certain number of the M+/raid base might try to use every little chance to gear as quickly as possible shouldn’t be the reason we don’t make content for others. That’s just my opinion though.

I completely agree. I would just say that this again would probably go away with the gear track. It, in my opinion, only serves to hold a player from progressing. If there were no tracks there would be no complaints about the “type” of gear that dropped in delves. Item level would be the only factor and that seems, to me at least, an easier metric to gauge. Content that would be deemed of similar difficulty would also drop crests and if say an 8 delve and M+5 were seen to be similar but not quite the same difficulty well then just have delves drop fewer crests (they also have daily lockouts).

As i mentioned before my suggestions are just that, suggestions. I know they aren’t full proof, I’m not sure any system would be. My suggestions are simply an idea to hopefully take an approach that might address issues with one side of the player base without ignoring the other side. Keeping most of the M+ as is and adding different achievable rewards like transmog and giving the option to have a less stressful, learning and completion oriented mindset to the rest doesn’t seem like it would really do harm to either side.

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There’s no reason why a party leader shouldn’t do that unless they actually want the challenge in a low level key, so many wouldn’t. It’s not good game design to provide an incentive for those higher geared players to target that low level content, either for keeping them engaged or giving an onramp to the lower geared players to get gear.

The keys without many chase items that are longer/more annoying might have less overgeared players signing up for them relative to those with chase items, but so long as the currency to push up the low level items they are getting is still farmed out of there, it’s still likely enough would sign up that appropriately geared players would have a hard time getting in. And the keys with chase items and those that are fast/simple to get through would be FAR worse as they would attract all the players seeking those chase items or farming currency as quick as possible.

The problem is that both paths would likely wind up being flooded by high level players. They are going to be in heavy competition with one another, too. So while those players might prefer the key option, there are only so many total groups to go around; some would likely jump into the “walk into dungeon without key” method just to get into a key.

No matter how many ways you want to try to dress it up, creating an incentive for players geared to the teeth to be in lower level content is going to create even more of an arms race than currently exists in those levels. And the players without access to the gear that drops from those levels will be completely priced out of content that should be for them. We saw it with Valor farming in Shadowlands and the first season of Dragonflight. We’d see it again here if upgrade tracks didn’t exist.

Yeah like I’ve said, it’s fine for a new mode to be added that offers this. I will happily sign the petition today to have it added. It’s just a LOT of these posts suggest for changing M+ into that rather than adding a new parallel mode. That’s where players like me get defensive. M+ without the timer is simply no longer M+; it might be fun and engaging for some players, and there may even be times when I would enjoy no timer. But not at the expense of timed M+.

I wasn’t suggesting delves and their reward structure shouldn’t have been added or should be made worse. Hence the second paragraph in the section you quoted here. The problem is that Blizzard painted themselves into a corner by removing the bottom 10 key levels with DF S4. There isn’t room to create an M+ difficulty that would be appropriate for similar levels of gear that delves are giving. So we wind up with what we see this season, with a heavy incentive for players who want to push in M+ to gear through delves until +7s; but +7s are difficult enough that many players can’t walk in completely blind to mechanics and expect to do well. The solution should be within the low end of the M+ system, not making delves worse.

No it wouldn’t, at least not completely. Most specs are better off with the itemization that drops from M+ and raid, but delves offer a quick hit at item level where the main stat alone will carry the piece to being better. It’s just when I am looking to get my initial item level, a 10-minute solo excursion through a delve is far faster with much lower risk while also dropping better gear than anything up to a +5 key.

No it doesn’t, it curbs very degenerative behavior that completely screws low end players and alts. I won’t dispute that part of Blizzard’s motivation wasn’t to hold back progression, that probably was part of the thought process. But the practical impact on players of having the ability for highly geared players to farm upgrades out of low level keys was absolutely horrible. So even if Blizzard’s motivation was to hold back progression, the positive impact of the change is more than worth it, IMO.

This should already be the goal, and I’m not sure why removing upgrade tracks would be required to accomplish this. I think it’s more likely that Blizzard either intentionally cranked up delve rewards to encourage participation or completely missed the mark when trying to balance T8 delve rewards compared with low end M+ keys.

Sure, as are mine. But there are things about your suggestion that seem to not quite work or we’ve actually had in the game and it was terrible for a certain group of players.

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Well they get to manipulate money from both types of people. They can introduce easy Delves to lure back in all the casual players they’ve neglected for years, while at the same time making Mythic+ even more elitist, “toxic”, hardcore and challenging/gatekeepy, whatever you wanna call it. And raids are kind of a weird mixture of both.

Delve gear is still lower than Mythic+ so it’s fine, elitist people can still feel like they are special and better than other people if they are good enough… people can say Delve gear it’s ‘too good’ but the point is if it wasn’t a bit OP it would lack incentive to do it. I feel like Delves are what Torghast should have been in the first place.

The change does hurt people who want Mythic+ to not be tryhard competitive e-sport content and to just be a “regular” optional endgame dungeon mode. But nah delves are basically that now. In the old system, I rarely ever did a key past +10 - so that would only be Mythic 0 for me now. I think much of the change was intended for the people who were ambivalent and not that serious about doing keys in the first place, to push them out of that content and into delves. Elitists can stick with elitists, and mole people can stick with mole people.

I think all of this drama could be avoided if people just realized that the progressions of content are so different and for different types of people. They are not meant to be compared so much and people are supposed to see more of a boundary between the 3 main pillars of content. I see what types of people play Mythic+ I wouldn’t really ever want to be in the same vicinity of them and I’m sure the feeling is mutual. I listen to casual Delvers talk about WoW and people who don’t take the game so seriously and don’t want it to be so tryhard and I’m like ‘those are my people.’ I think too many people in society think that different types of people can get along naively when we really can’t because our values are so different… and the solution to getting along is to have better boundaries not worse.

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Time to change gear drops to full currencies to buy gear.

Only gear to drop is legendries, and now everyone gets a shot at those too so nobody looses.

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I am once again asking blizzard to create an alternative endgame for dungeons for those of who who despise mythic+, make dungeons fun again and just give us endgame dungeons with the delve tier technology so we can keep getting more and more challenge but without all those unfun affixes and timers that make mythic+ garbage.

Don’t remove or change mythic+ either that way people who enjoy this content can still do it to their hearts desire while the rest of us can also finally start enjoying dungeons like the old days.