Mythic 0 Changes are ridiculous

[Akapally-barthilas]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Except that Blizzard didn’t make M+ easier for better players in the pursuit of offering easier scaled versions of it for worse players. If a +5 is too easy for you, a +6 is right there waiting for you. Blizzard doesn’t have to compromise your gameplay experience as a player running +32s in order to accommodate the player whose most appropriate difficulty level is a +2.

Yeh except this is what some of you guys asked for, and in a way so did those running M15, because running those low low keys was far too easy, you would get carried to an M8 without ever really putting in effort, you would then be carried to an M12 before you ever realised just how hard it was going to get and then complain.

The complaints from the M15+ crowd was that players who were super bad were getting into higher keys they should not be and it was ruining their keys, so now if they cannot be carried, they won’t show up in higher keys until they learn to play.

I would see players in M12-15 all the time being super bad, not knowing mechanics were a thing, getting hit by everything, dying, wiping and saying crap like “It was never an issue before”, because it wasn’t, because M2-12 was so easy you could literally be carried by 1-2 players and some of you did not realise this, some of you really did think they were good enough to do the content, but in fact were not.

And now it shows, players not being carried, players refusing to put in more than 2 weeks ‘effort’ to gear up doing world content, heroic dungeons and LFR, which could very easily get you to 490+ iLVL with minimal effort, but some of you don’t want to, you just wanted to be carried in low keys and get a better reward.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

The reason people are crying isn’t because heroics were made relevant, it’s that Blizzard ALSO greatly elongated the step between heroics and the next difficulty in the chain. It’s going from 10 tiers of progression in between those points to none.

Yet people are doing:

• S4 M0 at 460-470 iLVL, I done an M2 on an alt at 472 iLVL as tank.
• 500 iLVL M10 S4 (M20 at 460 iLVL in S3), I almost timed my first M10 this season tanking at 506 iLVL (That’s 466 iLVL M20 S3).

S3 was easier, but people are currently doing a lot higher key levels than some who are complaining M0 is too hard, while at a similar iLVL.

@Bludleddr-feathermoon

Maybe the in between is already there…M1. Just tweak the difficulty of M0 and gear rewards, and then basically make M1 what M0 is now.

No. Because than why not just make M2 what M0 is now, and then if they are going to change M2, why not M5? Where does it stop? Fact is people are doing M5-10 at around 500 iLVL, I’ve done an M2 at 472 iLVL, yet some players who are complaining are stating it’s too hard to do M0 at 470+ iLVL.

Maybe some players are just bad and need to learn to play better instead of changing the goal posts every time they cannot get past certain content.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Akapally-barthilas

Yeh except this is what some of you guys asked for, and in a way so did those running M15, because running those low low keys was far too easy, you would get carried to an M8 without ever really putting in effort, you would then be carried to an M12 before you ever realised just how hard it was going to get and then complain.

The complaints from the M15+ crowd was that players who were super bad were getting into higher keys they should not be and it was ruining their keys, so now if they cannot be carried, they won’t show up in higher keys until they learn to play.

I’m sure you could make this claim about change ever made or proposed - someone asked for this, therefore it’s good. No matter how you want to try to spin it, it’s far harder for players at the low end to ‘git gud’ than it is for players at the high end (who are good enough to time the keys they are running) to move up to the next key level to get beyond those “carried” players.

@Akapally-barthilas

I would see players in M12-15 all the time being super bad, not knowing mechanics were a thing, getting hit by everything, dying, wiping and saying crap like “It was never an issue before”, because it wasn’t, because M2-12 was so easy you could literally be carried by 1-2 players and some of you did not realise this, some of you really did think they were good enough to do the content, but in fact were not.

If that is the range that those players that know nothing can reach through carries, surely you should be able to push into levels beyond them. At some point, the lack of contribution from a player who is dead weight will put a ceiling on their performance that doesn’t exist for teams that have all members contributing. If the season is such that enough players can be carried to X, then teams that have any claim that they are above the level of those players should have no problem clearing X by such a level that those bad players won’t reach them.

@Akapally-barthilas

And now it shows, players not being carried, players refusing to put in more than 2 weeks ‘effort’ to gear up doing world content, heroic dungeons and LFR, which could very easily get you to 490+ iLVL with minimal effort, but some of you don’t want to, you just wanted to be carried in low keys and get a better reward.

For for the players whose limitation aren’t related to effort? Screw it, you can’t possibly have enjoyed your time in lower keys, it was all about gear. You should enjoy the homework to be able to play the game the way you could for the past 6 years.

@Akapally-barthilas

Yet people are doing:

• S4 M0 at 460-470 iLVL, I done an M2 on an alt at 472 iLVL as tank.
• 500 iLVL M10 S4 (M20 at 460 iLVL in S3), I almost timed my first M10 this season tanking at 506 iLVL (That’s 466 iLVL M20 S3).

S3 was easier, but people are currently doing a lot higher key levels than some who are complaining M0 is too hard, while at a similar iLVL.

Absolutely nothing in this statement disputes what I posted. Different players have a different skill level; the gear you need to accomplish something is not transferrable to any other player and what they could accomplish. Players are reaching the point where heroic dungeons are trivial for them but M0 is too much of a leap for them to succeed. The fact that you are not in that position doesn’t mean others are not.

@Akapally-barthilas

Maybe some players are just bad and need to learn to play better instead of changing the goal posts every time they cannot get past certain content.

Blizzard literally just changed the goal post to cause this consternation in the first place. Players who could happily run M+2 any season going back to BFA S1 with a similar amount of performance based on skill + gear are unable to do so today because of this change. This isn’t a case where M+ carried the design of being this challenging the entire time, such as mythic raid. This is a case where M+ was redesigned to be this challenging starting this season; something was taken from players which is important to the discussion compared to when something was always out of reach.

[Akapally-barthilas]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

No matter how you want to try to spin it, it’s far harder for players at the low end to ‘git gud’ than it is for players at the high end (who are good enough to time the keys they are running) to move up to the next key level to get beyond those “carried” players.

So stick to low level content? There is a reason there are 4 raid levels, 3 dungeon levels and an infinite number of keys to ensure we can all play at a level that suits our own skill. Not all of us deserve KSH/CE and if you are not good enough to get it, then don’t.

Maybe now because there is no more an M2-12 key level range that higher iLVL players used to carry some of you through, maybe now the same players will start to realise that they are just not good enough and should never have been doing those key levels in the first place.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Players are reaching the point where heroic dungeons are trivial for them but M0 is too much of a leap for them to succeed.

You basically agreed to what I said in this statement, that if some players can trivialise heroics, but not do M0 when other players are doing them, that just tells me those players are bad. Or that they refuse to keep doing heroics and LFR until their iLVL is higher.

You can get to 489 iLVL from heroics, JUST from heroics, not including LFR, not including world content, not including dungeon quests, TW quests, vault gear, TW raids. Players can VERY easily get to 500 iLVL without ever stepping foot into M0.

If players refuse to gear up, or are not good enough to do M0, that’s on them.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Akapally-barthilas

So stick to low level content? There is a reason there are 4 raid levels, 3 dungeon levels and an infinite number of keys to ensure we can all play at a level that suits our own skill. Not all of us deserve KSH/CE and if you are not good enough to get it, then don’t.

Did I say anything about KSH or CE needing to be accessible to all? There are players who were perfectly content to run low keys because they enjoyed the mode that were never going to reach those levels. Now those keys are gone all so that players who weren’t even going to interact with them in the first place have an easier time skipping over that range.

@Akapally-barthilas

Maybe now because there is no more an M2-12 key level range that higher iLVL players used to carry some of you through, maybe now the same players will start to realise that they are just not good enough and should never have been doing those key levels in the first place.

Why such the hostility toward players who aren’t as good as you? Seriously, how is that helpful?

@Akapally-barthilas

You basically agreed to what I said in this statement, that if some players can trivialise heroics, but not do M0 when other players are doing them, that just tells me those players are bad. Or that they refuse to keep doing heroics and LFR until their iLVL is higher.

Yep, those players are bad. Congratulations, you caught them. How does it benefit you if those players are stuck toiling in heroics for longer needing to supplement that jump in difficulty that used to have 10 levels between it with even more gear?

@Akapally-barthilas

You can get to 489 iLVL from heroics, JUST from heroics, not including LFR, not including world content, not including dungeon quests, TW quests, vault gear, TW raids. Players can VERY easily get to 500 iLVL without ever stepping foot into M0.

I feel like a lot of people forget this is a game, that a lot of players choose to play for fun. Putting these chores to be able to reach a gear level that was previously not required to play a game mode that you enjoyed is unlikely to make these players ‘git gud.’ They’ll likely just stop playing. That doesn’t help anybody.

@Akapally-barthilas

If players refuse to gear up, or are not good enough to do M0, that’s on them.

You’re right, everyone playing WoW has a base skill level. There can’t be anything standing between a player and a minimum level of proficiency other than just effort.

[Akapally-barthilas]

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Why such the hostility toward players who aren’t as good as you?

Because I know that players are not complaining because “It’s not accessible”, many are just wanting the easy carry low keys and these posts are just smoke, mirrors and excuses. There have been many times where players slipped up and straight up admitted they just want easy gear without the effort.

There have been many times where players openly admitted they wanted to be lazy and not just with keys, making random excuses, jumping on band wagons to get what they want to make their game easier, I’m tired of players pretending they cannot do this or that without ever actually putting in some effort.

You can get to 500 iLVL with ease, and once at that level M0 is super easy. It’s not about just being a bad player with your DPS rotation, but it’s about being lazy and not wanting to put in effort. If there are players at 470+ iLVL doing higher than M0, what’s stopping any of you from gearing up 30 more iLVL on top of that and just casually running M0? Casually, with no timer, you would be surprised once these players put in even just a smidgen of effort and not have to rely on being carried how easy the game actually is.

I’m not asking players to go do M10-15 in this season, but M0 really is such an easy game mode if players actually tried instead of coming to the forums being like “Why can’t I get invited to M2 at 472 iLVL, I think it’s good enough” and not take the advice literally everyone else is giving them, go do world content, go do whatever you can outside of keys to gear up, we all have to, whining about it never helps.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

needing to supplement

They don’t that’s half the issue, players assume they must have some sort of gear supplement to get into mythic dungeons now when that is not true, you are just refusing to listen.

You can get to 500 iLVL without ever doing a mythic dungeon now. That’s an equivalent exchange from S3 of 460 iLVL and an M15. Why would you need to be supplemented when you can already get there?

There is already enough gear in the game to get them to that point without keys. That was the main premise behind the change, to bring heroics up to a level that allows players to farm and still get gear without having to try running an 8-10 level range of keys.

@Dwelknarr-lothar

Putting these chores

What chores? Spend 2 minutes doing the feast? AFK for 15 minutes in Zaralek Caverns? 10 minutes for a time rift, 15 minutes for a superbloom. You can spend 5-15 minutes once per week per event, and if you only done the ones that were for the weekly, that’s ~30 minutes only per week.

Thirty minutes is not chores. For the last 3 weeks you could have ran 30 minutes each week only for a chance to get THREE x 480 iLVL pieces of gear and one 493 piece of gear per week. That’s up to 9 x 480 iLVL and 3 x 493 pieces of gear for a maximum of 2 hours over THREE WEEKS. If you call that chores I don’t know what to tell you.

2 hours for 12 guaranteed pieces of gear as opposed to maybe if you are lucky 4 dungeons and a chance to get 4 pieces of gear, a chance.

[Dwelknarr-lothar]

@Akapally-barthilas

Because I know that players are not complaining because “It’s not accessible”, many are just wanting the easy carry low keys and these posts are just smoke, mirrors and excuses. There have been many times where players slipped up and straight up admitted they just want easy gear without the effort.

So what? Truly, why is that so important? You are carrying yourself as a player who is better than those players. So you are likely to rarely encounter them in your content. How does it impact you if they are able to play the game and get more gear than you think they deserve?

You are certainly right that many players are using that excuse as a reason for getting easier gear. But there are players who do not care about the gear beyond how it allows them to push higher in their content. There are players whose skill has plateaued for reasons unrelated to effort. These changes are sweeping them up with the players who are just lazy.

And it’s unclear how your gameplay is impacted by either group being able to have that level of content. Isn’t it better to allow the players whose best leaves them in those ranges even if that means lazy players also benefit, when you aren’t going to interact with them regardless why they’re in that range to begin with.

@Akapally-barthilas

I’m not asking players to go do M10-15 in this season, but M0 really is such an easy game mode if players actually tried instead of coming to the forums being like “Why can’t I get invited to M2 at 472 iLVL, I think it’s good enough” and not take the advice literally everyone else is giving them, go do world content, go do whatever you can outside of keys to gear up, we all have to, whining about it never helps.

There are people in my guild who couldn’t get beyond an old +8 on their own merits with fully upgraded heroic raid gear in previous seasons. Yet now the barrier to entry for keys (not some alternate game mode with similar previous rewards, a key with that level of scaling) is 4 levels above that. This whole “difficulty X is so easy if you just hit ilvl Y” is simply divorced from reality. Some players will always lean more on gear to reach difficulty levels you can do in your sleep on a fresh max level character.

@Akapally-barthilas

They don’t that’s half the issue, players assume they must have some sort of gear supplement to get into mythic dungeons now when that is not true, you are just refusing to listen.

Again, you’re projecting the actions of some onto everybody here.

@Akapally-barthilas

Thirty minutes is not chores. For the last 3 weeks you could have ran 30 minutes each week only for a chance to get THREE x 480 iLVL pieces of gear and one 493 piece of gear per week. That’s up to 9 x 480 iLVL and 3 x 493 pieces of gear for a maximum of 2 hours over THREE WEEKS. If you call that chores I don’t know what to tell you.

You can try to talk down how quickly or easily these are done, but they are imposing a gate on players that didn’t exist previously. How long they take per week doesn’t make them not a chore.

@Akapally-barthilas

2 hours for 12 guaranteed pieces of gear as opposed to maybe if you are lucky 4 dungeons and a chance to get 4 pieces of gear, a chance.

This attitude is probably the single biggest whiff of players like yourself who are trying to educate players at the low end how easy it is to get ready for keys. You act like the only thing players care about is the easiest path to get gear and you dismiss any other motivation someone might have.

As soon as a player who wants to run keys reaches a minimum proficiency for keys, they have a single mode where they enjoy the gameplay, learn mechanics, improve at their rotation, and get gear. The M+ system shepherds players up or down the scale commiserate with their output. A player that wants to run keys, regardless of the seasonal goals they might have, does not have to run extraneous activities to pick up these skills.

The longer it takes a player to reach the level of performing in keys, the longer they have to spend in game modes that is only going to offer one of these benefits. Getting gear following a tree around Emerald Dream is not the same experience for a player that wants dungeon content as M+. And this refusal to acknowledge the difference shows just as dismissive you want to be of players lower on the totem pole as you. You get to start the season jumping into keys while telling players who are not at that level they should be grateful they can AFK in Zaralek Caverns for gear.

[Bataarua-garona]

Based on my experience running with capable friends who take pains to execute mechanics correctly, we would find M12-14 challenging, but doable in Season 3.

We could not get past the first boss in Azure Vaults or the 2nd boss in Ruby Life Pools in Season 4 M0 on our first attempts.

I suspect that Blizzard’s intent is for people like us to run easy Heroics enough to get decent gear and use flightstones/crests to max them out to be able to start clearing Mythic 0.

In our experience, telling us that the new Mythic 0 is equal to the old Mythic 10 seems disingenuous when we were able to clear Mythic 10’s pretty easily.

We feel it might be better to have a step of difficulty between the current Heroic and Mythic 0.

[Vailnite-kelthuzad (Vailnite)]

Imo these changes do not go far enough. I for one think the player-base would greatly improve if a small electric shock were administered each time a given player fails a mechanic in a m0.

[Talizha-moon-guard]

@Kwashiorkor-ravenholdt

I should start off by saying I haven’t actually tried the m0’s myself. However it’s pretty obvious the balance is off

if you havent done them then you cant really take the word of a bunch of people whining on the forums.

i never did mythics either this season until last week for the bullion. they arent as bad as people make them out to be. frankly they are more fun than heroics. i even managed to do m2s afterward with my dk and pally and they werent that noticeably harder.

they are challenging in a fun way. they should not in any way be made easier.

[Hpellipsis-whisperwind (Hpellipsis)]

@Bataarua-garona

In our experience, telling us that the new Mythic 0 is equal to the old Mythic 10 seems disingenuous when we were able to clear Mythic 10’s pretty easily.

It’s equivalent to what a 10 would have been. Remember that things also scale up with a new patch regardless of this change. We get 39 ilvls of gear progression so everything moves up roughly 39 ilvls of scaling.

An m0 is equivalent to what an S4 would have been without the change, that S4 10 would still be 39 ilvls of scaling harder than an S3 10.

[Fauxstrasza-stormrage]

People more than likely aren’t comparing remotely similar things. (s3 week 1 vs s4 week 1)

[Autumnblaze-malygos]

Harder is better. Mythic 0 should be a challenge, they did not make it quite difficult enough to be honest.

[Xfreak-illidan]

Heroic dungeons during cata

[Merpish-area-52]

Heroic dungeons are not supposed to be a learning ground for M0, they are the “scenic” difficulty mode the reward gear that can bridge the gap between being freshly dinged and M0.

M0 is the entry point into endgame content, it exists to teach you what mechanics exist in M+ and their level of danger.

M0 is the starting point.

[Lantra-muradin]

Heroics have always been stated as preping you for Mythics. Thats why they have ilvl requirements to even run Heroics.

[Aridaios-earthen-ring]

Man i love the mythics finally a challenge loving this season pls keep it up blizz