Because there are still many many people who need that gear to be able to progress. In many ways its the same problem that is encountered with the achievements being required to use valor to upgrade gear. There are tons of people that need the upgrade to be able to get the achievement but are locked out of it. For example I can do some 15’s but not all. Being able to unlock those last two upgrades on each piece might be enough to get help me complete them all.
And passed many peoples skill level a long time ago. I still see people doing 1k or less on bosses and not understanding the fundamentals of their classes. And when it comes to mechanics… you have to be joking about keeping up with player skill. We’ve seen numerous bosses (KJ, Gruul, Blast furnace, Thunder King, Durumu, Iron Maidens, Madness of Deathwing, Archimonde, Garrosh, Argus, and of course N’Zoth ) in LFR that are simply to difficult for your normal player because they require you to know everything thats going on. Then there are simply ADHD mechanics that quite frankly are insane when we step back and look at it, this weeks affix explosive comes to mind (I’ve had several pulls were 3+ orbs pop up and then respawn as soon as they are killed.)
The reason you may not see these people anymore is that most of them have quit. There is little to do outside of questing and LFR and neither require a community which is WoW’s biggest strength. Of the ones that remain most never even set foot into LFR anymore because people are lets say less than friendly. The few who remain tend to form small close knit communities like the guild I’m in were there are a couple of over performers that help to carry the team and are willing to teach as much as they can.
TLDR: WoW lost most of the average player long ago. People seem like they are better because the ones who have stayed by and large are the ones who have been able to keep up (and somehow not get burn out.)
Presumably it wouldn’t be a scenario where Heroic drops 278 and M+ Vault continues to drop 278. More likely, the cap would just be 265 / 272 if we removed the ilvl bonus from Mythic Raiding. You wouldn’t get power beyond what you’re intended to have.
If you can’t time 15s in 265 gear then that’s a you thing. This change isn’t about giving welfare rewards to bad players the help them overpower content, it is about lowering the curve to attaining BIS for a large chunk of the player-base.
What I would foresee is that nothing would change other than bringing down the tuning on the final bosses of Mythic a bit to be beatable with 265/272 gear. You wouldn’t make Heroic or 15s easier. There’d just be less gear to earn so BIS was more in reach.
Obviously this change would probably entail nerfing open world rewards and probably removing the heroic cache from dungeons and bumping that down to normal mode loot, but overall it’d simply be a reduction in rewards earned in the game, NOT handing out Mythic loot. Keeping Mythic, removing Mythic ilvl loot.
It is absolutely a mistake to think you need to cater to or overly reward a niche playerbase anyway. Does the game go out of its way to support and promote a “let’s slaughter boars” community that meets up and travels around the varying zones killing all the boars they can?
I 100% agree mythic raiding should turn into a purely challenge mode that gives you stat template characters and removes any and all barriers current mythic raids demand but also removes all the gear (since you wouldn’t need it anymore) and simply rewards seasonal rewards or achivements/titles. Then it only becomes about you and your team’s skill in executing mechanics while achieving high output.
I wouldn’t go that far. Just have Mythic drop twice as much loot and the loot that does drop has prestige recolors and extra particle systems. “No loot at all and complete normalized templates” doesn’t sound like WoW.
It was example to illustrate why people need gear…
As far as your insult, well look me up I’m parsing well ahead of the average parse with a history of multiple 100 percent healing for ilvl and into the 90th percentile for damage in the last raid. I just started this raid cycle this last week so we’ll see where I end up.
And I disagree with your opinion. Why shouldn’t people be able to complete content, gear up and continue to push. That is why people play the game yet there are arbitrary walls put into place to keep the plebs from going any further. Yet they already can to some degree.
For example I’m helping those in my guild by carrying them through +8’s so that they can upgrade their gear.
Others simply sell the runs.
There are methods to cheat the system as is already why not just remove it and allow everyone who puts in the time and effort to compete on the same playing field. And from a competitive standpoint what could be better than everyone being even. No more guessing if someone out dpsed or healed you through sheer luck.
But I don’t even care much for the initial proposal. I’m more in favor of removing LFR and Mythic and going back to the normal and heroic of old. Remove half the M+ levels and increase the difficulty between each tier (hell cut it to 4 difficulties at most and remove normal and heroic.)
It wasn’t an insult, it is simply facts. I don’t care about your parse and parses mean almost nothing to me (your parse can only reflect negatively if they’re low , not positively if they’re high). If you cannot time 15s in 265 gear that is absolutely a you thing - there is no way to wiggle out if that reality. In no way is mythic ilvl gear needed to time 15s.
Trying to capture lightning in a bottle twice is difficult to impossible. Chasing a feeling of the past has some set to do so to a point of unneeded frustration and then fruitlessly trying to will it on others becomes poison. Understandable though we love the game and we want that feeling.
The game has changed for the better. Players have also got better. I think there are so many improvements that outweighs the obstacles to relive a moment I had at point in the game.
I think Mythic raiding can be tuned down to get more players achieving it. Hit and miss with this last one so far illustrating the gap more than ever. I don’t want it to take away from the exceptional player though it would be better for the player base if it were balanced for more players to accomplish.
This hurts players who love the challenge of Mythic Raiding. The idea of capping M+ to let’s say M20 to “help more players clear M+“ is gross and the notion of nerfing raid difficulty is similarly likely gross to CE players.
Prestige only high end content has existed before. ZA bear, The Undying /The Immortal, Herald of the Titans, Yogg 0, etc.
Interesting that WOTLK was the peak of subs and also had the perfect balance balance of progression and prestige content.
It seems that you don’t grasp what I’m trying to explain.
Can I time 15’s? Yup easily. At this point I can solo +8’s. Do I want to nope. I have more than enough gear to get AOTC (and I only care about this as its a goal for the guild and not a personal goal.) and I have zero desire to Mythic raid or push anything at all. In fact I couldn’t care less if I personally get any gear at all this season. What I do care about is helping others get gear so that they can explore parts of the game that they have never seen and feel to intimidated by.
As I stated its an example. A thought experiment to explore a problem.
Now that we have that out of the way. You keep saying you don’t support it, may I ask why? After all people can pay to remove that achievement requirement or they can make friends and get carried. Why should it exist for some and not others?
It seems hypocritical to say remove the limits to ilvls I can’t get but keep them in place for people of lower skill than myself.
It’s not about fairness or equality, it’s about reviving the game.
Look at Wrath. Copy what Wrath strived to do. Boomers could get BIS gear but the highest levels of prestige were skill gated. That system worked. And yes, you did have essentially Mythic ilvl gear, but heroic then is likely more like heroic now in terms of skill levels with only a few exceptions.
And how would removing the gates (achievements that prevent upgrading drops) not achieve this very thing?
To be honest I think the best way to get people back is to start adding ways to create a community. There were/are tons of players kicked for low performance and unable to do anything but solo content and lets face it thats something wow does not do well.
It would deserve its own thread but I’d like to see a discussion on how to get players to engage with each other more than they do now.
Mythic raiding is more of a time commitment than heroic. If you join a casual mythic guild you can easily clear at least half the tier raiding two nights a week. Heroic is far too easy to let it drop the highest ilvl gear. In the majority of tiers the end boss dies in a couple days for heroic or around a week (slightly longer in SL).
People have hesitations getting into mythic because of its reputation but the first 5-6 bosses generally arent that killer they just require coordination and above average dps from a heroic guild. If you want the gear raid mythic, because as mentioned before over the course of a tier even a casual mythic guild (one who’s intent is to prog mythic, not just get aotc then step in mythic) will likely clear at least half the tier and give you the challenge you want.
This is what I am referencing. And I don’t think mythic+ Dungeons need to be tuned down they level up where as what I was meaning to point to was mythic raiding.
In light of the overall perception and having more players enjoy the challenge it goes better for the game to have more people who put the time in to accomplish it. Should be equal to Wrath heroic numbers over time of the expansion. It worked well.
I would tune mythics down and perhaps add hard modes or something that the exceptional player the real pros can add to the challenge with. Wrath had no mythic raiding and people were challenged in heroic but nothing like today for mythic raiding.
Or tune heroic up and use Mythic as the “hard mode”.
I don’t see why the game would be better if you forced people into 20-man raids if the tuning isn’t going to matter as much. Keep Mythic as the strictly tuned 20-man raid scenario, just treat it as the hard mode prestige content. Like a hard mode from previous expansions.
Blizzard is already exploring these waters in 9.2.5. Players will be able to take loot from Heroic, including End-of-Raid pieces of loot, and upgrade them by 13 ilvls. This means AOTC raiders will be able to get their hands on Mythic Veinrippers, Mythic Old Warrior’s Soul, Mythic Edge of Night, etc.
I wouldn’t be surprised if this becomes the future, as the idea of needing to Mythic raid for the best gear is kind of an outdated mindset anyways. Too many players Mythic Raid who really shouldn’t be.
This will also finally, FINALLY put to bed all the whining about “needing” to do M+, if raiders can get BIS from just strictly raiding and never need to do M+ if they hate it as much as they claim.
Mythic raiding is meant to be difficult to organize, do and attain gear from. I welcome it and look forward to it.
Heroic raids are easy. What I mean by easy is that on a weekly basis player power grows, therefore the heroic challenge becomes easier. It’s fine as it is.
Players can strive to do whatever content they want. The way it is now is perfectly fine.
Blizzard is experimenting with letting players upgrade Heroic ilvl raid loot into Mythic ilvl raid loot in 9.2.5. Them doing that raises the question of whether it is “perfectly fine”. Personally I find the whole idea of upgrading loot in this style a bit hamfisted but if it does become the norm it will probably dispel a lot of concerns about BIS I suppose even if I don’t think it is the perfect solution.
Side-note: I expect to see a LOT of people upgrading their weapon slot first if Blizzard sticks with all upgrades costing the same amount of currency like they do on the PTR. Heroic Sire / Heroic Syl / Heroic Jailer and then upgrade to 311 weapon. Seems pretty nutty. RIP M+ players if Blizzard isn’t planning on making any additional changes to balance that out.
I 100% agree that Heroic should drop the highest Ilvl loot. I actually believe that they should just remove Mythic as a raid lockout altogether, but reintroduce the hardmodes that Ulduar had, but call them something like Mythic Challenges or something. Do one for every single boss. I remember their justification for moving on from that system was something like, “We can’t keep coming up with different ways to be clever about it, so we’re making a new raid lockout,” but one of the hardmodes was literally a big red button that you pushed.
Mythic Difficulty Challenges:
Starting a heroic boss under certain circumstances would make the encounter more difficult, but would offer a unique reward.
Additional pieces of loot for your raid, a unique piece of gear only available for completing the mythic encounter (with the same stat budget as the heroic loot, extremely important), and/or a unique mount or transmog item.
Starting the Mythic Encounter could involve all kinds of shenanigans.
One encounter in the raid is empowered by an item that can be crafted by alchemists, the reagents of which could be farmed in the open world or from quests, combined into the finished product, and then sold on the auction house. Gives crafters a chance to actually contribute to a mythic raid, and make a little bit of gold as well.
Another mythic encounter could be started by having a rogue sneak through a gauntlet to another part of the raid, raise a portcullis, releasing a bunch of adds in the room, and then having to race back through the gauntlet avoiding traps and enemies and get back to the encounter room to help their mates.
Another Mythic Encounter could begin by PUSHING A BIG RED BUTTON, because that’s fine too and not everything in the game needs a chapter in a fantasy novel about why it exists, it just does, because vibeogaem.
I mythic raided for the first time in castle nathria, and I just didn’t find it fun. It was a drag, but I did it because for years I’ve felt like my character just actually sucks, and I wanted access to that sweet loot. I’m over that, and I think that the community at large is over it too. Mythic raiders are still going to be the best players, because they put in the most time and effort into being the best players. I think it’s awesome they do that, and they should have unique rewards for it, but power differences aren’t it.
The tuning for “Mythic Challenges” will definitely be problematic if it is melded into Heroic. Heroic is still flex which means you can do cheesy stuff with raid size.
I personally think Mythic Prestige Raiding is fine locked at 20 so Blizzard can tune around it properly.
Isn’t that proof of their point? They ran out of creative ideas so they put a big red button… and that was literally their first outing? Imagine them having to make 10/11 unique hard mode triggers every raid FOREVER?
Look towards the Glory achievements to see Blizzard doesn’t really get that creative with all of them. The Sylvanas Glory achievement for instance was very bland, whereas Painsmith and Soulrender were more interesting and would have served as proper hard modes if those were the Mythic add-ons.
I think this more of a time than difficulty thing. Being somewhere on a schedule 2-4 nights a week for us boomers is like… all of our free time when we have kids, wife, etc. It’s much easier to hop on, run a few keys, or queue arena/RBGs for an hour or so whenever you feel like it, and stop when you feel like it.
And even if it were a case of mythic raiding being beyond difficult; Blizzard gives people a very reasonable path to max gear Via timing/completing a 15+ each week. Why take away hardcore player’s ability to challenge themselves?
The big red button was great, in fact it’s probably the most memorable hardmode other than Yogg. It was a lame excuse then for moving away from what was the most interesting implementation of hard mode raiding.
