My Retribution Paladin & Enhancement Shaman "meme spec" experience

[Totemic-skeram]

Oof, this thread has lots of chest thumping and elitism.

I know this is going to sound really strange, but have you guys just tried playing the game and having fun?

What you call a ‘meme spec’ I call one of the most rewarding and fun play experiences. Enhancement Shaman, much like any other class is exceedingly gear dependent. We know the gear isn’t there until AQ, and the sustained damage isn’t there until TBC with Enhancement. We know that going in. We’re basically biding our time and doing the best we can until TBC launches.

I have gear for all 3 specs for Shaman, and I routinely swap back and forth as needed. If we need a healer? No problem, I’ll spend a couple of weeks staring at health bars. If we need more off heals, I’ll roll ele/resto. If we need more dps, I’ll swap to Enh and spec into improved totems. I know what I bring to a raid, and I know what my character is capable of.

Sometimes it’s not all about the DPS numbers you put out. Sometimes it’s about allowing the other characters in the raid to do more DPS. Sometimes it’s about having fun with your guildies.

Sure, I have guildies that want to parse 99’s, and they go get world buffs. They put me in their groups, twisting totems so that they can eek out that extra little bit needed to get that much coveted 99 parse. I’m glad I can be a part of helping them to do that. It makes me happy knowing they’ve been enabled to do so. My guild understands what I bring, and they also enjoy my presence as a person. At the end of the game, it’s all just pixels. It’s an excuse to get together with like minded people and have fun.

So, if your idea of fun is min/maxxing, find like minded people to do that with. Go get your 27 minute BWL clear. If that’s your idea of fun, then by all means go have a blast. My idea of fun is spending time with friends I’ve met online, going through content until it’s easy mode, and just shooting the breeze and cracking each other up while doing it.

I’d just say lighten up. Don’t worry so much about the details, and just concentrate on having fun. If you’re not having fun where you’re at, go somewhere else.

[Fayld-westfall]

@Smoff-korgath

Anybody with this train of thought should never be taken seriously. I will enjoy when TBC releases and these morons whine about not getting free level 58’s so they can roll a Hunter/Warlock and continue their elitist brainlessness

I went big brain play and have leveled one of each of those lol.

[Luaana-moon-guard]

World first happened a decade ago, the fact people are going hardcore in Classic is a bigger meme then a melee boomkin with Sulfaras

[Beautia-azuresong]

People going through all three fire raids in one night and then complaining about burnout and “nothing to do.” I think @Luaana is onto something here…

Classic is no longer srs bsns. I’ve approached it with wanting to have FUN and not nail everything in two hours. And I’m having fun, even playing Paladins that aren’t playing 32/?/? “Meta Paladin Healing Spec.”

[Unadara-herod]

Hes not wrong, people thought its proc rate was higher, so on pservers, it was a dps buff. In classic it has such a low proc rate it isn’t worth it unless nightfall is literally an upgrade until something else drops for them.

[Totemic-skeram]

@Unadara-herod

In classic it has such a low proc rate it isn’t worth it unless nightfall is literally an upgrade until something else drops for them.

You wield Nightfall in MC/BWL for when the Spinal Reaper/Drake Talon Cleaver drops. Once your raid sees the DPS you do with either of those two weapons, and see how little damage Nightfall brings to the raid, they’ll happily let you swing it around on non boss fights.

If you’re lucky, they’ll even let you swing it on boss fights too.

[Divinewind-stalagg]

You had a 15 year warning about these 2 specs, what made you think anything would be different this time around?

[Beautia-azuresong]

We had 15 years of PServers offering nonexistent HOLY RESISTANCE also…

PServers do not a good argument make as their numbers were flat out wrong. Don’t try to spin. You made an argument using PServers.

Don’t let Attack Power stacking Ret Paladins anywhere near a group unless they nonstop buff bot while not damaging. Spelladins (spell power stacker Rets) you can welcome, especially with a MCP stash or Naxx.

Don’t let Enhance Shammies near you if they stack AP either unless they are going to Totem Twist in your tank group. Spellhance (same principle) simply cannot shine until you’re out of fire raids and even then you’re stacking MCP’s.

The problem has always been stupid people stacking AP thinking it helps a Blue Rage class…and not dispelling…or buffing…or throwing an emergency heal…

[Darthjaedr-tichondrius]

A ret pally can flex into an OT or healer just with gear swaps and thays pretty tremendous utility right there. If specd properly they only lose 5% healing critical that is not needed with wbuffs.

[Mayatau-rattlegore]

Cool, why can’t a holy paladin do that?

[Darthjaedr-tichondrius]

Holy paladin can’t do dps over 150. A smart try hard ret can be doing 500+ when fully buffed.

[Mayatau-rattlegore]

Can you show me the talent build that makes it so a ret paladin is dealing over 300% more damage than a holy paladin doing the same thing?

[Darthjaedr-tichondrius]

No, I’m on my crappy smartphone at work. But I can tell you right now I have achieved a 99 parse doing less than 1 dps as a holy paladin many times. Go find some holy pally dps logs if you really doubt that hpals have zero single target damage output lol.

I think you might be confusing shockadins with spelladins?

[Mayatau-rattlegore]

I’m going to advise you to use critical thinking about why this comment is stupid. Perhaps, re-read the things I’ve said and re-evaluate them.

[Darthjaedr-tichondrius]

The only thing here that involves stupidity is thinking that somehow a holy pally is going to push out 500 dps. The fact you even asked shows you have zero class knowledge gg.

[Orno-faerlina]

The minute someone like you talks about excluding people over dps is the second that dude gets benched in my book.

Excrete like you are highly replaceable, good hybrids are not.

[Valarkin-pagle]

@Veshzi-deviate-delight

So, don’t roll ret or enhance cause you are trash damage and substandard utility, and along with that people don’t want to give you good loot that might be beneficial somewhere else.

Shaman and Paladins have the best raid utility in the game…period, bar none.

Guilds use either for various reasons…ie they have plenty of other wonderful Priest and Druid heals, and they don’t need a 4th, 5th, or 6th of either, for a full buff spread, because they don’t need that many healers that are Paladins or Shamans.

This thread has so much oversimplification in it its just downright pathetic!

@Kade-benediction-962348

Do Resto Shamans bring improved Windfury Totems?

As was stated Imp WF totems only ups the attack power of the totem. Many restos will only use rank 1 in mana intensive fights to conserve mana, and you get most of the benefits even with rank 1.

@Bozho-frostmourne

Don’t forget that Shaman have something like a 8% proc rate on Nightfall, while Warriors are closer to 20%.

For the love of God no…just no!

Stop pulling BS numbers out of your butt.

Shamans and Paladins can generate 37 to 39 proc opportunities per minutes without cheesing it up with SotC for a few more.

So by your math Warriors are producing 95 proc opportunities per minute?! are you nuts?

And if someone says Wing Clip or Hamstring I’m gonna slap you…because with huge parse sample sizes under our belts from Classic, we are not see’ing Hunters nor Warriors generate even remotely that much increased uptime on Nightfall from doing either…and yet both classes suffer huge drops in DPS when attempting it.

@Veshzi-deviate-delight

Even a warrior spamming hamstring is 3x better at this than a ret pally.

More anecdotal crap!

So according to you Warriors generate 114 proc opportunities per minute?

Explain to me how you can even post this when your swinging a 3.5s weapon and your rage GCD is 1.5s…with a 2H spec then has decreased Flurry uptime and decreased rage generation overall…

Oh wait…its not even remotely possible.

@Bozho-frostmourne

Hunters have more than double the proc rate than a Warrior. More than five times that of a Shaman. I do agree that it’s not worth.

Dear Lord.

Wing Clip is still restricted by GCD.

40 per minute…35 when you factor in latency, input lag, etc

Auto Attack is 17.14

52 per minute…vs 38…ya thats 5X the value…

@Hagrim-deviate-delight

Nightfall only makes sense for ret paladins/enhancement shaman whose dps output is bad enough to warrant it.

No. Nightfall frequently makes sense for Enh Shaman or Ret Paladins because they are using their axe with their intended spec and in their regular mode of combat.

They don’t have to drop dual wield, faced reduced flurry rates, nor do they have to give up Edgemasters for Glancing blow issues.

For Hunters it should be obvious that your not shooting a ranged weapon.

@Purge-bloodsail-buccaneers

Most of your problems come from your leadership just being idiots.

I’m going to agree with this.

Holy Paladins in ANY Judgement armor in a raid are sub optimal. The helm your looking for better than T2 Purge is Circlet of the Mind Flayer, which also happens to be BiS for all of classic.

@Nobleshield-bleeding-hollow

Around this time Nightfall’s proc was shown to be absolute garbage

Its not garbage…but everyone wanted it to be an overpowering like it was in Vanilla before it was “adjusted”

A Paladin or Shaman, depending on fight, can generate between 15 to 20% uptime on most fights.

Thats 2.25% to 3% increased spell damage raid wide. Most guilds have between 8 and 10 casters. The axe scales with caster damage…

When casters seriously start to ramp up after BWL farming, and then enter AQ40, there isn’t a single 2Hander that any class can wield to make up for that damage loss.

@Zeliek-moon-guard

Actually, the proc rate is being suppressed on higher than 60 mobs/bosses, similar to TBC fizzle mechanics. The math is there and has been reported on the bug report forums.

This.

Nice to see someone bringing knowledge

@Dazzma-emerald-dream

Even top geared does less than half the dps of a barely trying rogue or warrior.

About 65% actually if they know what they are doing.

Oh and they bring more utility than any rogue or warrior could hope to.

The only thing conflating meters is recklessness and Execute. Those advantages are clearly diminished on longer fights…clearly shown by logs. As fights lengthen that advantage will wane.

[Bozho-frostmourne]

@Valarkin-pagle

The only thing conflating meters is recklessness and Execute. Those advantages are clearly diminished on longer fights…clearly shown by logs. As fights lengthen that advantage will wane.

Let’s not forget that warriors will continue to scale at a rate that other classes can’t compete.

Thanks for your post, you offer some good counters, I’d be interested to see if the math holds up.

[Veshzi-deviate-delight]

@Valarkin-pagle

Shaman and Paladins have the best raid utility in the game…period, bar none.

A) I was summarizing the OP’s post if i recall correctly, although i think that was weeks ago? Memory is fuzzy, but i think that was the gist of it.

B) Yes, paladins have good utility, and being a ret allows for nothing unique in that regard. Unlike druid- which brings unique things based on the spec they are playing, all paladins have ~pretty much the same utility. Which is why you bring holy paladins, not rets.

[The only reason to bring a ret paladin is because you happen to like that player, as a person. I’m not necessarily knocking it, if you want a token ret in your raid, but in no way is having a ret paladin a boon to the raid.]

[Zeliek-moon-guard (Zeliek)]

@Valarkin-pagle

This.

Nice to see someone bringing knowledge

Well, to clarify my post since new knowledge has come to light, the proc rate has been observed to be suppressed against raid bosses at least (no parses for trash obviously). The average proc rate itself has been calculated to around 8% from many raid parses and the uptime is usually worse. If your raid isn’t strictly monitoring the number of debuffs (including invisible ones) going out then low prio debuffs will overwrite it. Also it has been observed that some higher priority debuffs are pushing off the lower priority ones when they get refreshed from different sources. At least that is the running theory. It’s hard to get any information out of the combat log.

But, you know if blizzard says it is proccing from the front and the back at 11% in their testing; then everything must be working as intended. Sadly moving away from a boss doesn’t provide negative swings so that theory is out the window.