My Ideal Templar talents, version 3

[Longwriter-stormrage]

The fact that I’ve come up with a third iteration of my ideal talents probably means Blizzard will come out with another iteration of their Templar talents very soon, now. That’s my luck in a nutshell: the moment I take a bio break is the moment that world boss respawns; at least I can use that luck to get good outcomes for others, if not for myself…

I digress; here’s the link:

https://www.deviantart.com/lookoutherecomestom/art/Ideal-Templar-Hero-Talents-Iteration-2-1036720561

Sorry about the naming–I made a typo when I was uploading the image file

I have a lot of detailed comments in the description below the image file, but I’ll reiterate a few here:

My earlier iterations lacked flavor, theme, and effects that unified the tree. So I decided to take the idea of wielding a shield and a 2H weapon at the same time and run with it, setting up the active and passive effects to build off of that. I.e.: wielding a shield and a 2H weapon at the same time is the flavor and theme of my 3rd iteration Templar talents.

My design philosophy still uses the fun-factor and making sure each individual talent is beneficial to both specs as its North Star, but this time I’ve put more effort into theme, flavor, and unifying the tree.

Most of the active abilities in my third iteration are pretty close to what they were in my second iteration, including the capstone, which is a gap-closer, i.e. something that Retribution has wanted for a long time. I removed the effect of the capstone instantly giving its primary target maximum stacks of Seal of Vengeance because I was thinking about how it fits into the shield + 2H flavor; if I should pull that brings-SoV-stacks-to-maximum thing that it had during iteration 2 back into the capstone’s effects in my fourth iteration, then I will.

There’s one talent that might confuse people who didn’t see my earlier iterations: Templar’s Protectorate. That choice-node in tier 4 was intended to permit players to try their hands at a different playstyle if they want to: Ret can offtank if they take that talent, and Prot can offDPS if they take that talent. Another of my overall design goals was to put a lot of agency in players’ hands about their playstyle, up to and including adding options for offtanking, offhealing, or offDPSing. But none of those options are intended to be required for anyone, hence their inclusion inside choice-nodes.

I’d like to add that my earlier iterations of Templar had a lot of effects and names borrowed from the Diablo 3 franchise; this one has far fewer, because I’m focusing on what works for Retribution and Protection, not on what looked and sounded cool in Diablo 3.

Feedback on this iteration would be much appreciated!

[Greatbrae-dalaran]

This is an improvement.

Although since a sheild is involved, i think it would be a missed opportunity to not take advantage of SoTR in the tree for rets.

[Longwriter-stormrage]

Well, I do have SotR: the tier-2 talents on the left let you combine either TV or Divine Storm with SotR.

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

Now this is a Templar Paladin I would love to play, lol. The 2h + Shield is such a goated fantasy, its so sad Blizzard isn’t going with it. =/

I wish Templar’s Rage, Templar’s Focus and Shield of the Templar where more of a combo attack then simultaneous.

Like using some ability (Divine Purpose?) empowers your next TV, turning it into a free SotR for 3 sec, allowing you to hit TV → SotR. You get those two distinct HP finisher buttons and animations, that would be really cool.

Also, Templar’s Wrath seems like it could turn into something with Blade of Vengeance maybe?

Blade of the Avenger

• Blade of Justice now causes an Avenger’s Shield to radiant from the target, striking up to x nearby enemies.

If Blade of Vengeance is known, also does xyz…

Or for Prot, if you played Plunderstorm, the Holy Shield ability, it made your AS explode and cause BoJ to strike all enemies. That would be such a satisfying ability to press lol.

[Ralloris-thrall]

I’ll go down the tree and give my feedback for each node as a prot pally main.

Heavenly Strength:
Flavor-wise, I think this would only make sense with a polearm but that would be way too difficult to use. Locking it to 2h and shield should be relatively fine but does cause issues further down the tree imo.

Templar’s Rage/Focus:
Shield of the Righteous is one of our most boring spells, so as a prot I’m actually benefitting more than Ret does. But it’s kind of just “more damage” for me, as Divine Storm and Templar’s Verdict won’t have any additional effects or buffs from the tree.

Seal of Vengeance:
Having this change how an enemy reacts to your stats is just asking for spaghetti code problems. Probably better for it to just be 1-2% more damage to and less damage from the target. Or rework it to be a self-buff that increases str, but prot already has something for SotR that does that so it’d be doubling up on str buffs, so I’d go with the former idea.

Fanaticism:
I think this should give crit and parry to both specs, or only crit to ret and parry to prot. Giving prot both but not ret feels bad.

Shield of the Templar:
I’m okay with this as is. It has a low enough proc chance to not be constant but a good enough buff to feel good when it goes off.

Exorcism:
The second half of this is a problem, because if I don’t use Judgment first before other spenders I am just losing out on potential procs of SotT. Also what part of this node overlaps when I cast multiple Judgments? If it is the damage, this becomes way too strong with very few casts and would probably need to be reduced down to 10/15% instead of 25%. If it’s just the proc chance, then SotT might as well be 100% by default because Judgment is used on cooldown.

Awakening:
Should probably be swapped with Divine Strength so it sits in the “tree” that it affects. I know you were probably avoiding having multiple choice nodes per “tree”, but Blizz did it so it’s fine. Other than that, the guaranteed judgment crit only matters to prot because ret already gets it.

Templar’s Protectorate:
The mastery affecting holy damage for prot doesn’t really matter, as our spells scale off our attack power which our mastery already increases. So you’re really just doubling the offensive effectiveness of our mastery (I know the math works out differently and would be more than that). So I’d like to see a bit more power on this for prot. You could probably make it double our mastery and then it would be an interesting choice.

The ret side of this, though, is WAY too strong. You’re giving them crit immunity, riposte, and half of prot’s mastery for a single point. This would be mandatory and Awakening would likely never be picked in PvE or PvP because 30% more judgment damage, guaranteed crit (which it already does with a class tree node), and 12 seconds of Wings just wouldn’t be enough damage compared to the insane defense of this choice. You should probably remove the crit immunity and damage reduction and just have it give riposte and block.

Templar’s Wrath:
Could make the screen a little busy but otherwise sounds good. Although if this works like Rage/Focus and fuses the buttons into one, then Grand Crusader is going to reset BoJ, and Art of War is going to reset Avenger’s Shield. So both will be going off as often as those spells currently do.

Vengeance is Justice is Vengeance:
I call it this because, with Templar’s Wrath making both abilities the same(?), there’s not really a choice here. Justice is Vengeance is just better, because both specs will be throwing out so many Templar’s Wraths that the guaranteed stack will cause Seal to max out before we even use a single Rage or Focus.

Divine Strength:
This might need tuning as our new weapon loadout will be giving us more strength, so stacking a % strength buff on top of that might be too much.

Shield Charge:
Can’t give immunity. That’s just way too strong. Also why is it this instead of just causing you to do a guaranteed SotT on the target? That way you could still get a defensive benefit with SotT’s block buff, but it isn’t so wordy and ties back into the tree it is capping off. Can even make it apply a stack of Seal of Vengeance first, so you get that little extra boost on your target before the SotT.

Overall an interesting idea. I like the idea of literally fusing spells from each spec, the way Frostfire Bolt does, but you gotta be careful about how the base spec interacts with the spells you’re fusing.

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Zaim-sargeras

Like using some ability (Divine Purpose?) empowers your next TV, turning it into a free SotR for 3 sec, allowing you to hit TV → SotR. You get those two distinct HP finisher buttons and animations, that would be really cool.

The problem with this, for me, would be GCD economy. As a prot, the TV would be competing with AS and procs from Grand Crusader, Judgment with Awakening and Exorcism, and Blessed Hammers for SotT procs. Other buttons that have talent bonuses would take priority to me, so TV would almost never get used.

@Zaim-sargeras

Or for Prot, if you played Plunderstorm, the Holy Shield ability, it made your AS explode and cause BoJ to strike all enemies. That would be such a satisfying ability to press lol.

We have a talent that makes AS explode already (Tyr’s Enforcer). But having the BoJ animation play after the target gets hit by the shield would be a good way to reduce screen busyness. But ultimately the talent would do the same as it currently says it does.

[Longwriter-stormrage]

@Ralloris-thrall

Templar’s Rage/Focus:
Shield of the Righteous is one of our most boring spells, so as a prot I’m actually benefitting more than Ret does. But it’s kind of just “more damage” for me, as Divine Storm and Templar’s Verdict won’t have any additional effects or buffs from the tree.

Now I have some idea what iteration 4 needs…! I should’ve seen this coming, honestly; I keep saying that making sure each talent is useful for both specs is my “north star”, but this…? I should’ve looked at this choice from Prot’s perspective, not just Ret’s.

@Ralloris-thrall

Fanaticism:
I think this should give crit and parry to both specs, or only crit to ret and parry to prot. Giving prot both but not ret feels bad.

I’m a bit surprised. I’d meant that it provides crit to both, and then Prot’s Riposte passive copies the +crit into +parry, and the way I phrased it was meant to simply be a clarification. But if Ret would actually benefit from +parry, I’ll add it. (And simplify SoV.)

@Ralloris-thrall

Exorcism:
The second half of this is a problem, because if I don’t use Judgment first before other spenders I am just losing out on potential procs of SotT. Also what part of this node overlaps when I cast multiple Judgments? If it is the damage, this becomes way too strong with very few casts and would probably need to be reduced down to 10/15% instead of 25%. If it’s just the proc chance, then SotT might as well be 100% by default because Judgment is used on cooldown.

Those are some problems I did not think about. My goal was the “multiple applications can overlap” dealio was to make it so that it doesn’t feel like a debuff you need to maintain; the DoT just feels like a buff to Judgment’s damage, albeit that extra damage happens over time.

How would it work if having at least one Exorcism debuff on the target increases the proc chance of SotT?

@Ralloris-thrall

The ret side of this, though, is WAY too strong. You’re giving them crit immunity, riposte, and half of prot’s mastery for a single point. This would be mandatory and Awakening would likely never be picked in PvE or PvP because 30% more judgment damage, guaranteed crit (which it already does with a class tree node), and 12 seconds of Wings just wouldn’t be enough damage compared to the insane defense of this choice. You should probably remove the crit immunity and damage reduction and just have it give riposte and block.

Shoot, so much for a simple offtanking talent

@Ralloris-thrall

Templar’s Wrath:
Could make the screen a little busy but otherwise sounds good. Although if this works like Rage/Focus and fuses the buttons into one, then Grand Crusader is going to reset BoJ, and Art of War is going to reset Avenger’s Shield. So both will be going off as often as those spells currently do.

The thought was that Grand Crusader would be prot-only and Art of War would be ret-only. I wonder if I should add a caveat that AS is at 30%-50% effectiveness for Ret and BoJ is at 30-50% effectiveness for Prot, or something like that…? I’m pulling these numbers out of the air, here.

@Ralloris-thrall

Vengeance is Justice is Vengeance:
I call it this because, with Templar’s Wrath making both abilities the same(?), there’s not really a choice here. Justice is Vengeance is just better, because both specs will be throwing out so many Templar’s Wraths that the guaranteed stack will cause Seal to max out before we even use a single Rage or Focus.

Dang—my aim was to make Vengeance is Justice the multi-target choice and Justice is Vengeance the single-target choice. Guess I didn’t score a bullseye with that…

@Ralloris-thrall

Shield Charge:
Can’t give immunity. That’s just way too strong. Also why is it this instead of just causing you to do a guaranteed SotT on the target? That way you could still get a defensive benefit with SotT’s block buff, but it isn’t so wordy and ties back into the tree it is capping off. Can even make it apply a stack of Seal of Vengeance first, so you get that little extra boost on your target before the SotT.

I’m a tad surprised; the immunity is for the less-than-a-second duration when you’re in transit.

I expect I’ll add SoV back to the effect, and probably I’ll add SotT as well, to help unify the tree a bit better.

@Ralloris-thrall

The problem with this, for me, would be GCD economy. As a prot, the TV would be competing with AS and procs from Grand Crusader, Judgment with Awakening and Exorcism, and Blessed Hammers for SotT procs. Other buttons that have talent bonuses would take priority to me, so TV would almost never get used.

I agree; my thought on Zaim’s suggestion was that it shouldn’t take two button presses of the same button to spend your holy power. That said, maybe I could add something like “your next damage ability also casts Shield of the Righteous”. Though, of course, there’s a couple considerations, there:

1. We don’t want to make Protection wait for their +armor buff for a second button press, so it’d need to be “SotR on next button press for Ret, TV/DS on your second button press for Prot”
2. I need to come up with something that helps Protection when TV/DS gets cast. Applying a stack of SoV isn’t quite enough.

@Ralloris-thrall

We have a talent that makes AS explode already (Tyr’s Enforcer). But having the BoJ animation play after the target gets hit by the shield would be a good way to reduce screen busyness. But ultimately the talent would do the same as it currently says it does.

For clarification: if you’re Ret, then the AS flying out at your BoJ target is meant to be a bonus—it’s got no embellishments like Tyr’s Enforcer or Bulwark of Order or the silence/interrupt effect the like, at least not for Ret. And for Prot, Blade of Justice is only meant to hit the primary target, and it has no embellishments like Blade of Vengeance or Consecrated Blade.

That said, maybe I should consider adding something to Templar’s Wrath that’s helpful for Protection; like the Templar’s Focus and Templar’s Rage merged-spells, it’s basically just more damage for Protection.

I wonder if I can add an effect where the bonus damage turns into an absorb shield…?

Thank you all very much for this feedback!

[Arahgon-maiev]

this looks like a very fun and creative tree, i wouldnt mind playing this in idk a private realm or something

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Longwriter-stormrage

How would it work if having at least one Exorcism debuff on the target increases the proc chance of SotT?

The damage would still need to be nerfed, because otherwise at 4 stacks I’d be doing Judgment’s full damage as a DoT and as burst. I think it needs a max stack limit and for that limit to only allow 50-75% of Judgment’s damage to be done again over time, but then what happens if I reapply it before the debuff is up?

The problem is less so what the node wants to do, and more so how often we use Judgment. That’s why Judgment of Light is such little healing, because it’s borderline permanent with how often Judgment goes out. Prot has Crusader’s Judgment, Ret has Improved/Boundless Judgment and Highlord’s Judgment, and both get Seal of Alacrity. So both specs can have 2 charges of Judgment with 11sec recharges.

I actually think this might work better as a Hammer of Wrath talent, because Avenging Wrath lets us throw it out during the duration so it would still be able to apply before execute range. That let’s you keep a high damage value per stack, but also increase the duration of the stack so it’s less damage per tick but a longer time to get bonus SotT procs. With Ret auto critting HoW, they’ll get a significant DoT out of it while prot will enjoy the additional block chance from more SotT procs.

@Longwriter-stormrage

Shoot, so much for a simple offtanking talent

I think the problem is that Gladiator stance already proved we can’t really have an offensive off-tank. It’s a shame and sucks to have to admit, but dps are dps and tanks are tanks for a reason. We can’t really overlap them that much or it breaks the holy trinity.

@Longwriter-stormrage

The thought was that Grand Crusader would be prot-only and Art of War would be ret-only. I wonder if I should add a caveat that AS is at 30%-50% effectiveness for Ret and BoJ is at 30-50% effectiveness for Prot, or something like that…? I’m pulling these numbers out of the air, here.

The potential issue is that the resets will apply to both halves (AS resets also reset Boj and vice versa). The damage doesn’t really matter as much as the talent synergy in our spec trees and the hero spec tree. This isn’t currently an issue, just something to keep in mind so it doesn’t cause a node to overperform.

@Longwriter-stormrage

Dang—my aim was to make Vengeance is Justice the multi-target choice and Justice is Vengeance the single-target choice. Guess I didn’t score a bullseye with that…

If you want to do this, you’d have to make Wrath’s effect that it throws out an untalented version of the opposite, but then the “choice” becomes prot one half and ret the other. The problem lies in Templar’s Wrath doing both spells at once, so you can’t try to separate them anymore. You could combine the choice nodes, though, and have it be:
Templar’s Wrath has a 50% chance to apply Seal of Vengeance, and causes enemies hit to take 20% of the damage as Radiant damage over 6 seconds.

This opens up the other choice node, maybe for one that swaps the DoT to upfront damage but lowers chance to proc SoV to 20/25%?

@Longwriter-stormrage

I’m a tad surprised; the immunity is for the less-than-a-second duration when you’re in transit.

Warriors aren’t immune during their charges, as far as I know, so I don’t think we should be either. Just in the spirit of fairness.

@Longwriter-stormrage

• We don’t want to make Protection wait for their +armor buff for a second button press, so it’d need to be “SotR on next button press for Ret, TV/DS on your second button press for Prot”
• I need to come up with something that helps Protection when TV/DS gets cast. Applying a stack of SoV isn’t quite enough.

1. Totally correct take on it.
2. It might be weird, but what if we got Justicar’s Vengeance instead of TV/DS? We don’t really care about the TV giving a free HoW (Or maybe we do if Exorcism becomes HoW focused?) and SotR already does enough aoe for DS to be redundant. But JV gives purely single target damage and a small heal, and having it attached to SotR doesn’t sound that out of place.

@Longwriter-stormrage

For clarification: if you’re Ret, then the AS flying out at your BoJ target is meant to be a bonus—it’s got no embellishments like Tyr’s Enforcer or Bulwark of Order or the silence/interrupt effect the like, at least not for Ret. And for Prot, Blade of Justice is only meant to hit the primary target, and it has no embellishments like Blade of Vengeance or Consecrated Blade.

They’re basically Blade of Vengeance+ and Focused Enmity+, respectively. That opens up both those choice nodes for experimentation, at least.

@Longwriter-stormrage

That said, maybe I should consider adding something to Templar’s Wrath that’s helpful for Protection; like the Templar’s Focus and Templar’s Rage merged-spells, it’s basically just more damage for Protection.

I wonder if I can add an effect where the bonus damage turns into an absorb shield…?

At most I’d say you could make the AS and BoJ apply talents from the opposite one, but I think it’s fine as is. It’s not a problem node in and of itself, it just risks causing other nodes to be problems. I also have no idea if I’ve started to contradict myself, so I apologize if I have.

Edit: Didn’t realize I wrote a whole gah damn thesis in my reply. lmao.

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Longwriter-stormrage

I’m a bit surprised. I’d meant that it provides crit to both, and then Prot’s Riposte passive copies the +crit into +parry, and the way I phrased it was meant to simply be a clarification. But if Ret would actually benefit from +parry, I’ll add it. (And simplify SoV.)

Forgot to mention this, but riposte only affects crit from gear (a fact that I had forgotten until writing this). Any crit buffs don’t translate to parry. So it should just give crit and parry to both. Fits the theme too for a node to be offensive and defensive at the same time.

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

@Ralloris-thrall

The problem with this, for me, would be GCD economy.

Yeah, it would definitely have to be polished and smoothed out.

But tying it to Divine Purpose could mean that you don’t have to use it right away, and even having a short duration on the Empowerment could mean that you could ignore it at times as well.

ex:

Templar’s Purpose
Your HP Finishers have a X% chance to make your next Holy Power ability free and deal Y% increased damage and healing.

Ret:
Consuming this effect on Templar’s Verdict empowers you for 3-5 sec to cast SotR an additional time for free.

Prot:
Consuming this effect on SotR empowers you for 3-5 sec to cast Templar’s Verdict an additional time for free.

Combines with other Divine Purpose abilities.

I love these examples Longwriter does because they aren’t so narrow in design. He’s not putting all his eggs in one basket as the official Blizzard talent trees appear to be doing, and he’s expanding it to much more of the class.

If you play other classes, such as Mage or Warlock, there’s actually quite the big audience of players who don’t care for either Hero talent tree so far.

Destro Locks who want big hitting Fire abilities get to choose between an Empowered Demon or DoT. These talents are a big gamble and I don’t personally think Blizzard is getting that right.

Long story short. >.> … While I do like Longwriter’s Talents, I also wish things like Exorcism were cut and he’d add a Blessing or Aura in places of a few of these abilities. I think Exrocism here is a bit forced and out of place and would rather he save it for a Scarlet Crusader theme Hero Tree in the future.

@Ralloris-thrall

We have a talent that makes AS explode already (Tyr’s Enforcer)

Yeah… My buddy plays the tanks for our group, so my knowledge and experience in Prot’s design is a bit limited as I’ve had little reason to spec Prot this expansion, but I’m hoping that there’s a Prot rework in TWW that expands Prot to more Holyfire options.

I’ve just loved Holy Shield in Plunderstorm and how fluid that gameplay felt. I think adding that to Prot Paladins in WoW would just be some of the most fun and engaging gameplay.

As a WoW costumer, I want the most bang for my buck.

[Longwriter-stormrage]

@Zaim-sargeras

He’s not putting all his eggs in one basket as the official Blizzard talent trees appear to be doing

Now, you’ve been watching the videos on my channel

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Zaim-sargeras

But tying it to Divine Purpose could mean that you don’t have to use it right away, and even having a short duration on the Empowerment could mean that you could ignore it at times as well.

I think my issue with this is that it then becomes optional to use, and I wouldn’t want part of my hero spec to be optional. Also doesn’t particularly fix the GCD economy problem, as I’d still need to press both buttons. Also Prot doesn’t have TV. At all. So they’d need to add that back into the prot spell book. But maybe doing something like Hammer of Light is doing and swapping the button to the other could help with that. Give it a reduced GCD so it’s not eating up too much time? That way you can throw it out quickly when you don’t have a better option? But this still feels like adding complexity just to justify tying in Divine Purpose, and then it forces you to use Divine Purpose on one spell every time it procs instead of letting you pick and choose.

@Zaim-sargeras

I love these examples Longwriter does because they aren’t so narrow in design. He’s not putting all his eggs in one basket as the official Blizzard talent trees appear to be doing, and he’s expanding it to much more of the class.

I agree. I never really liked the idea of 2h and shield when it was brought up in the official feedback post but he put a lot of effort into it and made it creative in such a way that I could put aside my dislike of the idea and enjoy the more literal fusion of ret and prot.

@Zaim-sargeras

I also wish things like Exorcism were cut and he’d add a Blessing or Aura in places of a few of these abilities. I think Exrocism here is a bit forced and out of place and would rather he save it for a Scarlet Crusader theme Hero Tree in the future.

A Scarlet Crusader tree would be really interesting and definitely would fit exorcism more. Maybe instead it could be a self buff (Seal of the Templar) that increases your chance to proc SotT by 5%, stacking 10 times, whenever you use Templar’s Wrath or Rage/Focus? Whenever you crit, you gain 2 stacks instead of 1? Or, to keep with the Templar’s Purpose name, whenever you hit with the spec abilities (SotT, Rage, Wrath, or Focus), you have a 10% chance to gain Divine Purpose? Gives you a chance to get insane Templar’s Rage/Focus chains with Templar and Divine purpose, but with a low enough proc chance that it wouldn’t happen often but feel insane when it did.

@Zaim-sargeras

I’ve just loved Holy Shield in Plunderstorm and how fluid that gameplay felt. I think adding that to Prot Paladins in WoW would just be some of the most fun and engaging gameplay.

The problem to me is that adding the “press the button again for it explode” feels like adding a chore, not engaging gameplay. Like I press AS and now I have to ignore everything coming off of GCD in order to watch where the shield is and press the button. It works really well in Plunderstorm because of how few buttons you need to pay attention to and how big an impact the explosion has. I like using it in Plunderstorm, too, but I’d hate to have it added in TWW.

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

@Ralloris-thrall

But maybe doing something like Hammer of Light is doing and swapping the button to the other could help with that.

Yeah this is how I’d envision the ability working, as I think that’s a very successful way to design combo type abilities. (Similar to Templar Strike and Templar Slash)

@Ralloris-thrall

Also doesn’t particularly fix the GCD economy problem

Well, in a general stance, I usually give feedback under the assumption that things are going to change in the expansion. I would argue that it’s rather unlikely that the Paladin class won’t receive some changes to abilities, cooldowns, and what-have-you.

So usually when I provide feedback such as this, it’s more so asking questions about the “big idea.” To encourage expanding on the design, and too identify opportunities.

Example could be: Blessed Hammer could get a +2 second cooldown, or Grand Crusader lose 5% in proc chance, but given more damage, etc… and that could shift the whole dynamic of the GCD economy for the class.

So the question becomes, what’s more important?

Should we prioritize this iconic, cool 2 hit Combo- first, than adjust the filler abilities as needed after?

Same thing goes for Retribution. Let’s remove Holy Power generation from Crusader Strike, see how that feels, and if it does feel better. Lets find something cool to put in it’s place.

I understand a lot of players want to look at changes in relation to what we currently have, but I view each expansion as a clean slate.

@Ralloris-thrall

Maybe instead it could be a self buff (Seal of the Templar) that increases your chance to proc SotT by 5%, stacking 10 times, whenever you use Templar’s Wrath or Rage/Focus?

Well it’s a lot to take in for these particular talents, but my ideal take from this would be:

I would like to see Seal of Vengeance work off of Shield of the Templar instead of Templar’s Rage and Templar’s Focus.

Having SoV proc from CS/BH would feel like it has more uptime, and like I said above, could give more purpose to CS than generating Holy Power, if that just so happened to be removed for Ret. (or whatever changes Prot gets)

So I would swap Shield of the Templar to above Seal of Vengeance, and make Templar’s Rage/Templar’s Focus the middle of the Tree and change that to the Templar’s Purpose idea I mentioned above.

Exorcism would be cut from the tree and an Aura would be added.

Awakening and Templar’s Protectorate would be cut from the tree and a Blessing talent would be added.

This way the tree would revolve around having:

1. 2h+Shield
2. CS/BH effect
3. Seal of Vengeance (Judgement/Unleashed Seal effect added)
4. Boj/AS AoE effect
5. TV/SotR effect
6. An Aura
7. A blessing
8. Mobility Spell

And too me, that’s a much more well rounded talent tree design. We can be dead center of SW City and I know you are a Templar because you are wearing a 2h+Shield, you have a unique Aura visual, and in combat, you have unique Spells, Blessings and mobility.

[Longwriter-stormrage]

I’m going to have a heck of a lot to think about when I get around to iteration 4, thanks to the both of you—really appreciate the feedback and ideas!

There’s something else I’ve been thinking about: how to make Templar’s Rage and Templar’s Focus appealing to Protection. Obviously, merging SotR and Justicar’s Vengeance works for the single-target option, but I’ve thought of something for Divine Storm: each enemy hit has the damage they deal to you reduced by a flat amount.

I got the inspiration for this from Vanilla’s version of Blessing of Sanctuary; it also reduced the damage the target takes by a flat amount per hit, and it was optimal in situations where lots of not-so-hitting enemies are attacking the same target; I figure this could be similar.

@Zaim-sargeras

Exorcism would be cut from the tree and an Aura would be added.

I can understand Exorcism not quite fitting with the tree, but I’m surprised you’d want an aura—first of all, it’d be competing with Devotion, Retribution, and Concentration aura, and secondly, auras don’t really provide interesting gameplay.

Would it be better if it were a buff to our auras instead, kind of like how Merciful Auras for Holy revives the Aura of Mercy effect from Legion without competing with Devo/Ret/Conc auras?

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

@Longwriter-stormrage

I’m surprised you’d want an aura—first of all, it’d be competing with Devotion, Retribution, and Concentration aura, and secondly, auras don’t really provide interesting gameplay.

Yes and no. Auras don’t necessarily have to be pure team based imo, as long as there’s something that aids my teammates, I’m all for it.

Example would be Aura of Reckoning in PvP. (appose to your Awakening suggestion, though idk if Ret needs more wings uptime. >.> )

example 1:

Vengeance Aura

(Replaces Retribution)
Whenever any party or raid member within 40 yds takes more than 10% of their health in damage in a single hit, gain a stack of Reckoning.

Upon reaching 50 stacks, your next weapon swing deals 100% more damage, activates AW for 6 sec, and each member gains 5% increased damage and healing, decaying over 30 sec.

example 2:

Defiance Aura
(Replaces Devo)

Reduces all damage taken by 3%.

When any party or raid member within 40 yds takes more than 15% of their health in damage in a single hit, each member gains 5% increased damage and healing, decaying over 30 sec.

When this effect ends, your next Templar’s ________ will deal 15% more Radiant Damage.

When this effect ends can be whaterver, right?

• Immune to posions for 12 sec, immune to fear for 12sec, what ever the baseline Aura is, the end result comes back as a slight personal buff.

You can combine auras, or make unique buffs, but the end would result in Templar, Lightsmith and Herald all ideally having their own unique aura buff and visual so that it’s an indicator that you are a Paladin, but more so a specific Hero Paladin.

One of the biggest issues I think with the current WoW Hero Talents, is outside of these very narrow times, do you actually feel like a Hero Spec. You have to proc something in combat, or use an ability for you to notice.

Which is always why I think not specializing into Weapon skills was a missed opportunity on Blizzard’s Part.

• 2h+Shield for Templar
• 2h Herald for Holy
• Lightsmith forged Holy Shield for Prot and Holy

A better balance between glpyh/hero skins, and player power, which just adds more flavor and diversity to the world.

@Ralloris-thrall

The problem to me is that adding the “press the button again for it explode” feels like adding a chore, not engaging gameplay. Like I press AS and now I have to ignore everything coming off of GCD in order to watch where the shield is and press the button.

The easy way to solve this problem, is just make it a choice node, honestly. =/

I do mythic+25s, and 2400+ PvP, but I don’t really care for parsing or worrying about every single GCD. I’m more interested in good gameplay and interactive abilities so these types of things to me just seem like simple choice nodes.

In the grand scheme of WoW, I think a next step in ability design is going to be “Toggles.”

If you play a Pet class, you can “toggle” on a Taunt ability so that the pet auto casts the ability whenever its off cooldown.

Eventually, and it would have to be worked out a little better for sure, a concept will come where you can toggle abilities to perform 2 different functions, such as whether or not an ability Charges.

Eye of Tyr

• Release an eruption of Holy Light dealing x damage and reducing all damage taken by y%.

Toggled - Eye of Tyr now charges to your target.

Final Reckoning

• Call down a blast of Holy Light dealing x damage and increasing all damage enemies take by y%.

Toggled - Final Reckoning now causes you to Leap to your targeted location.

Very simplistic concept, but imo, likely to be a next step in WoW’s design.

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Zaim-sargeras

Eventually, and it would have to be worked out a little better for sure, a concept will come where you can toggle abilities to perform 2 different functions, such as whether or not an ability Charges.

I really like your ideas, though those would likely never be toggled off because movement is too important. But something like Eye of Tyr being toggled between damage and DR I could definitely see. Toggle to damage on bosses, toggle back to DR for mythic+ and junk between bosses.

@Zaim-sargeras

You can combine auras, or make unique buffs, but the end would result in Templar, Lightsmith and Herald all ideally having their own unique aura buff and visual so that it’s an indicator that you are a Paladin, but more so a specific Hero Paladin.

I’d think it would be really cool to have hero talents upgrade an aura, but I really hate the “when an ally takes % of max hp damage” trigger, especially for a devo aura upgrade. Something like “When an ally is targeted by an enemy” would feel more appropriate for devo aura specifically. Something like:

Templar’s Shield Aura
(Replaces Devotion Aura)

Reduces all damage taken by allies within 40 yards by 3%.
Whenever an ally within the aura is targeted by an enemy spell or ability, they gain Shield of Vengeance at 10% effectiveness. Each ally can only gain this benefit once every 60 seconds.

I know it doesn’t really interact with the hero spec internally, but it gives a good feeling of protecting allies (devo’s thing) while also being offensive (templar’s thing).

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

@Ralloris-thrall

I really hate the “when an ally takes % of max hp damage” trigger, especially for a devo aura upgrade.

Yeah, I’m not a fan of Retribution Aura working this way either.

If I’m not doing content that triggers 30% of my HP in a single hit, then it’s pretty much a “fake buff.”

And if I’m running with another Paladin, who is running Devo, we kindof have contradicting buffs. While I wouldn’t want them to take off Devo cause the benefits the aura provides, it’s kindof like Hey… my Ret Aura would proc a lot more if we were taken 3% more damage…

So, I definitely think Auras can be improved going forward.

@Ralloris-thrall

I’d think it would be really cool to have hero talents upgrade an aura,

Yea, and it’s not to say that the Hero talents need to effect Auras for them to be successful, it’s just my personal feedback about the design of these trees and trying to achieve more of a balance between Hero Skins and Player Power.

But also, this isn’t meant to be a check box of X amount of talents need to be designed for ______ content. Or one talent for PvE and one talent for PvP, etc…

But imagine if you are a casual player, doing World Quests, Delves, Heroic Dungeons, or whatever casual content and you see the Hero Trees introduce Empyrean Hammers and Sunspots-- but you don’t get the experience of these talents because mobs die before they can really take effect.

• I hit WoA, the mobs at 20% HP, I hit HoL, the mob dies… what’s a Empyrean Hammer?

• I hit WoA, the mobs at 20% HP, I hit FV, the mob dies… what’s a Sunspot?

Again, you don’t need Auras, but also, do you wanna put “everything” into the combat system?

[Ralloris-thrall]

@Zaim-sargeras

And if I’m running with another Paladin, who is running Devo, we kindof have contradicting buffs. While I wouldn’t want them to take off Devo cause the benefits the aura provides, it’s kindof like Hey… my Ret Aura would proc a lot more if we were taken 3% more damage…

Retribution has always had a weird identity. Even back when it was retaliation damage, dps and healers got no benefit from it but tanks wanted to run devo instead. I would see rets running concentration just incase the holy wasn’t close enough for the mage to get the buff.

@Zaim-sargeras

Yea, and it’s not to say that the Hero talents need to effect Auras for them to be successful, it’s just my personal feedback about the design of these trees and trying to achieve more of a balance between Hero Skins and Player Power.

Definitely not all of them. Herald, for example, doesn’t need one. But if a spec is more “grounded”, i.e. is about the paladin doing things themselves rather than manifesting the Light in a more powerful way, then I think having an aura upgrade for trees like that would be nice.

@Zaim-sargeras

but you don’t get the experience of these talents because mobs die before they can really take effect.

Hopefully max level casual content will be balanced enough to show off at least a little of the hero spec (you summon sunspots every pull but outside of bosses you don’t get much use of the lasers, for example). It’s part of why I like Longwriter’s templar; he’s enhancing the things we already do every pull instead of adding more things to do, so we’re going to see the combat stuff more often than Hammers of Light. But there can definitely be one or two nodes that give you some flavor that doesn’t require a beefy target to beat on.