My Ideal Herald of the Sun Talents, version 3

Herald of the Sun is the tree I was looking forward to the most, which likely means it has the largest amount of my own personal biases and wish-fulfillment attached to it, which I strongly suspect will make it the worst of the trees I have in iteration 3…

Though at least I’m doing a lot with the sun theme in my naming! :slight_smile:

https://www.deviantart.com/lookoutherecomestom/art/Ideal-Herald-of-the-Sun-Hero-Talents-Iteration-3-1036837365

You can see a bit of my bias with the offspeccing talent I have in tier 4, An’she’s Favor, and how I made Flash of Light castable on enemies if you take that talent–I have pined for a ranged direct damage spell with no cooldown since they took Denounce away in Legion, and I’ll admit the best way to give paladins back a ranged damage spell with no cooldown is probably to add it baseline (or to the holy talent tree), but because the Hero Talents are a new system, I keep trying to sneak in a ranged damage spell with no cooldown using the Hero Talents.

I could go off on a tangent here about how Blizzard is in the bad habit of adding abilities, not because they’re fun or useful, but because they fit the systems the Blizzard developers are adding, and how that tends to make the quality of players’ experiences a crapshoot…but I should stick with the topic of the third iteration of my Herald talents, and my doubts and intentions in this tree.

Iteration 2 actually had Radiant Bolt as an upgrade for Flash of Light—a concept that kind of worked as a choice for caster!holy specs versus instant!holy specs, but that did not work for retribution players. So I replaced that choice in tier 2 with yet another single target vs. multi-target choice: Solar Storm upgrades Light of Dawn and Divine Storm, while Solar Shock upgrades Blade of Justice and Holy Shock. (Solar Storm was a passive in iteration 2 that buffed LoD and DS, interestingly enough.)

I also really liked Blizzard’s own Sunspots concept; it helps us in doing what we’re doing anyway, so I took a stab at importing it into my Herald tree’s third iteration. But I think I goofed my implementation of the Sunspots concept: you only apply sunspots to allies while healing or to enemies while doing damage if you’re spending holy power right after casting Fist of the Heavens. I suppose that was my attempt to make Fist of the Heavens fit in with the Sunspots concept. In and of itself, that’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it does mean there’s a lot more incentive to cast Divine Storm/Solar Storm/Light of Dawn to apply sunspots to as many targets as possible than there is to cast TV/WoG; in retrospect, maybe it would’ve been wiser to use the “Greater Sunspot” concept I had attached to Solar Shock for the single-target finishers.

And then, there’s the Sundog passive…for context, a sundog is to ice crystals what a rainbow is to water droplets: both are refracted sunlight, but while rainbows are on the opposite side of the sky from the sun, sundogs are quite close to the sun due to the vastly different refractive properties of angular ice crystals vs. round liquid droplets. Hence, I wanted the ability to apply sunspots to things near your main targets passively with the Sundog concept–I have a variation of the Sundog concept in my second iteration, as well.

But the fact that iteration 3’s version of Sundog applies healing sunspots when you do damage and damage sunspots when you heal might just be a klunky concept; especially when you consider that Retribution always applies sunspots when they cast healing spells on allies, and Holy always applies sunspots when damaging enemies. In retrospect, those guarantees were probably a mistake, in that they incentivize Solar Storm over Solar Shock way too much. What I’d been thinking at the time when I designed Sundog was that the damage-for-healing and healing-for-damage passive that Selfless Healer was intended to generate would benefit if healing naturally happened for your allies when you dealt damage as Retribution, and if damage naturally happened for nearby enemies when you healed allies as Holy.

Depending on the feedback I get, I might be revising Sundog so that it’s just creating that passive healing-when-you-damage and passive damage-when-you-heal, and take out the effect where direct damage as Holy or direct healing as Ret applies sunspots. Then again: I might be completely revising the way sunspots get applied in general! FotH + holy power spenders for direct sunspots and random procs for offspec sunspots might not be the best implementation, and with the kind of excellent and creative feedback I’ve been getting, I expect I’ll be hearing MUCH better ideas than that :slight_smile:

I also took Blizzard’s sun avatar capstone (or something like it), gave it a little more An’she name-flavoring, and plopped it in tier 4 to replace an Avenging Wrath-affecting “Sudden Sunrise” talent that I’d had in tier 4 in iteration 2. My understanding is that tampering with Avenging Wrath’s cooldown does more harm than good, so I figured I should replace Sudden Sunrise with something, and the sun-avatar concept looked so appealing…!

I try to take Blizzard’s ideas into my own trees when I think they look good; one of the other ones I borrowed was Second Sunrise—itself a throwback to a Legion artifact weapon trait from The Silver Hand, and honestly it wasn’t all that different from the Solar Storm passive I had in iteration 2…

I also attempted to make a multi target vs. single-target choice below Fist of the Heavens with Sunstroke vs. Soothing Sunlight. Interestingly enough, the Soothing Sunlight choice is the single-target damage choice…I should probably rename it, even if the effect is good.

Fist of the Heavens likely deserves some prose, itself: I really wish they’d import it into WoW, already—it’s a terrific effect, and it doesn’t even need to have the lightning-flavor it had in the Diablo series: giving it sunlight-flavor works just as well. Though I should probably mention that the little extras I added for Holy and Retribution were intended to pull in some benefits from the Holy tree for Retribution (the Righteous Judgement talent from Holy’s tree—though I see it’s only a 30% chance there, my mistake making it 100% here, but I’ll leave it if the feedback says to), and I also intended to pull in some benefits from the Retribution tree for Holy (i.e. the Improved Judgment talent from Retribution’s tree). I hope that makes sense!

I briefly touched on An’she’s Favor at the start of this, but I should say more about it here: my plans to allow Retribution paladins to offtank or Protection paladins to offDPS in the Templar tree fell flat on their face, but I’m hoping that my plans to allow Holy paladins to offDPS and Retribution paladins to offheal in the Herald tree won’t. I mean, with any given GCD, you can either heal, or you can DPS, but you can’t do both. An’she’s Favor was and is intended to allow for that off-spec capability, and figured I should mention that before I close out.

Finally, the capstone is my attempt to pull in one of Uther’s spells from Heroes of the Storm into World of Warcraft—it’s a nice ability, and I think it deserves a place in WoW. Don’t get me wrong: the old Holy Radiance spell from Cata/MoP/WoD had a near and dear place in my heart, and if I had to do it all over again and had a choice, I’d wish they hadn’t pruned our Holy Radiance no-cooldown AoE heal going from WoD to Legion. But with Holy Light being a multi-target heal (if you take the Resplendent Light talent), and a lot of free multi-target healing coming from Merciful Auras and Golden Path, I don’t think that version of Holy Radiance has a place in paladins’ kits these days. So I’m happy to let that spell’s name go to Uther’s ability.

If I can get my overall Herald concept to work, then I think I can create a Retribution spec that generates a lot of passive healing for allies while benefitting from that passive healing with Selfless Healer, but that also has options for some powerful direct heals if they player wants to do direct healing—not to mention heavily incentiving casting Lay on Hands when an ally needs the healing, or Holy Radiance when your raid/party needs the healing. And I think I can create a Holy spec that generates a lot of passive damage while benefitting from that passive damage with Selfless Healer, but that also has options for direct damage if the player wants to mix in direct damage. I figure something like that is pretty fitting for a Holy/Retribution hero tree.

But I think I’ve spotted enough flaws to know: I don’t have this working yet. Please do leave feedback about other flaws you’ve spotted that I haven’t, and any ideas you have to fix them!

Numbers aside.

You’re trying to make 2 ideas cohabit while I think they warrant their own tree in the context of what Hero talents are suppose to be.

I think Fist of heavens could be the focus of its own Hero spec TBH, it has potential.

Sunspot or Fist of Heaven should be the first node and Avatar should really be the capstone.

Personally, I’m not a fan of the re-hybridization of classes.
While I think it’s fine they retain some form of spot healing, I think we’ve been power-creeping on passive healing quite a bit for non healer specs.

Which leads to healers being dropped out of group composition in favors of supplemental DPS, especially in M+.

I like that in your tree, there are other occasions to creates sunspot besides Wake and AW.

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I love the idea of banking power to be used on the opposite role. If I spent the last 10 GCDs on DPS, being able to hit a more powerful heal could give me the ability to catch back up. And vice versa, if I spent the last 10 GCDs on healing, it gives me a chance to put out more damage.

However, for Retribution, Selfless Healer may encourage overhealing, or just awkward moments on trying to fit an instant FoL into your rotation to min/max this effect.

So I’d be interested in how you could make a better feeling Of Dusk to Dawn and Seal of Order…

Selfless Healer:

Your healing banks “An’she’s Fury” causing your next TV/DS/SotR Finisher to apply Sunspots, doing xyz…

Your damage banks “An’she’s Blessing” causing your next WoG/LoD to apply Sunspots, doing xyz…

And this could stack from Lightforged Blessing, Judgement of Light, etc…

Talents:

  • Fist of Heavens does feel a bit overwhelming, especially replacing Judgement and applying a Consecration. With Double Judgement, DT, Divine Resonance, and Consecrated Blade, you could find yourself with 6+ Consecrations on the ground, and honestly, at that point just make it Ashen Hallow 2.0. :joy:
  • Solar Strom I think is a very interesting talent, though could feel a bit redundant. If I’m standing ontop of 8 mobs in Mythic+, what’s the point of it doing both a cone and whirl wind around me? Why is this different that Tempest of the Lightbringer?

    • It feels more like a positioning thing than a new effect. I would encourage you to maybe look at Omni Knight and Dawnbreaker in DotA2. (Can just google it) They have very unique Healing spells, and Dawnbreaker is very Solar base in theme.
  • Second Sunrise is a cool talent, but same for Blizzard’s version, Ret and Holy already have Empyrean Legacy and for Ret, Tempest of the Lightbringer. Why is this unique? Could this add to those talents?
    “Second Sunrise does ________ if Empyrean Legacy/Tempest is already known…”

    • I have Divine Storm + Empyrean Legacy + Tempest of the Lightbringer

      • What is unique about Solar Storm and Second Sunrise?
      • How do these talents build upon eachother, or set themselves apart? (both viable options)
    • I have Light of Dawn + Unending Light + Shining Righteousness + Empyrean Legacy

      • What is unique about Solar Storm and Second Sunrise?
      • How do these talents build upon eachother, or set themselves apart? (both viable options)
  • I like Holy Raidance, but it feels a bit undercooked. Is it a new ability? or does it proc when I press Wings? After spending so much of my bank? After 15 HP finishers? Etc…
  • Avatar of An’she, I like this ability as well, but I think has a similar problem again to Blizzard’s… Mobility isn’t really our strength. Dragons have this “Linked Beam” effect and it works for them because their toolkit encourages a lot of movement.
    • Is there something more you can add to this ability or make it synergize with Holy Radiance?
    • Similar to Templar, could activating Avenging Wrath turn to Holy Radiance for 12 seconds, allowing you to mark enemies and allies with Sunspots? So I don’t have to waste a Steed or worry about void zones, boss cleaves, etc…

I like the synergy of banking solar energy and then using that on Sunspots (though I hate the name, lol) I’d really like to see that flushed out more.

I really like Solar Strom and Second Sunrise, but given our current talents that revolve around LoD and DS, I’m not sure if it’s entirely necessary . I’d like that too get a little more smoothed out, or have those existing talents be taken into consideration more.

  • (again, I think Blizzard’s tree has the same issue)

And I’d really like to see Avatar of An’she and Holy Radiance become a cool synergetic ability. I think of something like Holy Priest’s ability to fly up in the air in PvP (Divine Ascension) or turn into an Archangel. I wouldn’t want copies of those but I’d like that level of uniqueness and epicness brought to Paladins. (Really dig into that Legendary ARPG roots.)

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I’m a bit worried that requiring players to heal as ret or do damage as holy before the sunspots kick in isn’t such a great idea—that’s why I made Fist of the Heavens be the thing that allows Holy Power spenders to apply sunspots. Though maybe that wasn’t the best solution; you’re still dealing damage as Holy, even if you’re healing allies near the target…

I should’ve made it clearer that only effective healing (or effective consumption of a healing-absorption effect) counts towards Selfless Healer for ret :confused:

The thought going through my mind was that, if you’re retribution, you’re healing allies as well as damaging enemies, which would trigger Selfless Healer. Same for in you’re holy: enemies will take damage as well, and that’ll trigger Selfless Healer for Holy. Though if that’s not enough to make it interesting…well, I’m open to ideas.

Putting it like this makes me wonder if I need to make Solar Shock more powerful to compensate for this…maybe I already have with the Greater Sunspot thing, though…

Holy Radiance is indeed a new ability, based on Uther’s version of it. Don’t get me wrong, I miss MoP/WoD’s version of the Holy Radiance spell (it was an AoE heal with no cooldown that produced 1 holy power when cast), but what with the number of ways Holy paladins can get group healing these days (Resplendent Light, Golden Path, Merciful Auras), I don’t think that version of Holy Radiance has a place in WoW. But Uther’s version, I think, can work. I’d intended for it to be a relatively short cooldown—maybe 45 seconds or so, and I’d intended for it to be outside of the Holy Power system.

TBH, I don’t really like Blizzard’s implementation of abilities that temporarily morph into other abilities—I figure it should be a permanent replacement (well, as permanent as your talents) or not at all, as temporary replacements simply increase the complexity of the UI and gameplay.

Making this synergize with Holy Radiance, though, is an interesting concept: I suppose I could have things like activating Avenging Wrath reset HR’s cooldown or something like that.

Smoothed out in what way? Are you thinking that, instead of being a double-cast, it instead places some kind of buff on allies or debuff on enemies that pops after a few seconds and does extra healing/damage? Or am I totally on the wrong track, here?

Well, the idea is to look at Divine Storm, Tempest of the Lightbringer and Lightforged Blessing all together.

  • Divine Storm = 8 yard radius
  • Tempest of the Lightbringer = 20 yard “Cone”
  • Lightforged Blessing = AoE Heal based off of DS

All of these together make a really cool ability/function.

But imagine if Divine Storms’ healing (Lightforged Blessing) was based on the proximity of that Divine Storm Attack.

(For the moment, lets ignore external Range Players’ Positioning)

So imagine Lightforged Blessing read:

Lightforged Blessing:

  • Divine Storm now heals all allies within the radius of your Divine Storm for 6% of the damage dealt.

Allies within your Divine Storm, that 8 yard radius, will heal for 25,000 because that’s the “main attack.”

While allies within your Tempest of the Lightbringer (the cone) will heal for 5,0000 because that’s the secondary effect.

The closer you are to the Paladin, the more powerful the heal is. The positioning of Tempest of the Lightbringer, and where you project it, is important-- but not necessarily game breaking.

It’s a cool and interactive ability that encourages you to be mindful of where you stand and position yourself to make the most out of it, raising the skill cap.

That’s a cool interaction, a cool combo…

but that exists within the baseline version of Ret.

From the baseline Class/Spec tree, I already have DS, the AoE, Tempest, the cone, and Lightforged Blessing, the heal…

What is Solar Storm doing that’s different? What’s being added to this already cool baseline interaction?

Is the purpose to give you more flexibility in talent choices? You don’t need to take Tempest and Lightforged, but they stack with Solar Storm, so you’re encouraged too, etc…

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I’ll post this just to give an example, and again, its not to say do this or add this.

But when you take a look at what talents/spells we have, and what you want to build off of:

The ability I want to look at is Divine Storm and what talents branch off of it.

  • Divine Storm
    • Tempest of the Lightbringer
    • Lightforged Blessing
    • Empyrean Legacy
    • Sanctify
    • Burning Crusade

Sanctify and Burning Crusade also buff Consecration. That’s interesting, so lets look at Consecration.

  • Consecration
    • Golden Path
    • Seal of Mercy
    • Incandescence
    • Consecrated Ground
    • Strength of Conviction

These two abilities have some cool interactions and some cool spells, but we really don’t get to see these talents shine, is there a way to make these all feel better?

What if Solar Wrath simply caused Divine Storm to drop a Consecration?

Solar Wrath

  • Divine Storm now leaves a Consecration in its wake for 3 sec.

What does this do?

  1. It makes Tempest of the Ligtbringer a bit more cool, leaving a trail of Consecration.
  2. It makes Consecrated Ground a bit more interesting because it expands the radius of Consecration and slows enemies.
  3. It makes Golden Path and Seal of Mercy more interesting as it can now effect more allies.
  4. It makes Incandescence more interesting because it creates a bigger area or more chances to proc from.
  5. It even makes things like Divine Purpose more interesting as you could potentially have 2 paths of Consecration up, encouraging you to move around a bit and interact with your positioning.

All of this opened up because I simply attached Consecration to Divine Storm. A really simple addition from a talent, that just expanded itself naturally to 5+ others.

Then finding out what the equivalent to Holy is, etc…

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What if instead of leaving a trail, the Consecration gets placed as per normal but have a chance to actually increase the radius (becoming bigger) up to 3 stacks? Maybe we can also add in ''Enemies within this empower Cons take 1/2/3% more dmg from you?

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You want Paladins to have Defile?!?! lol

I mean, it can be anything really, I’m not trying to say what it should be exactly, I’m just trying to challenge Longwritier’s design, asking questions to see if it gives some different perspectives.

Solar Wrath is an interesting talent. I love the name and expect that it would have a cool visual and all around just be satisfying to press.

But, given the functions of Solar Wrath:

(This is more directed at Longwriter or the concept)

Solar Wrath
Replaces Divine Storm

Deals Radiant damage and healing both in a cone in front of you and in an arena around you.

This is cool as a stand alone Divine Storm replacement.

However, when you factor in Lightforged Blessing and Tempest of the Lightbringer, it gets a bit more complicated.

Does the Cone also stack with TotL?

  • Do I now have the AoE around me, the cone, AND the projectile?
    • Is this too much?

Does this stack with Lightforged Blessing?

  • Do I now have even more healing with the AoE, the Cone, and Lightforge Blessing?
    • How does that balance out?
    • Should it inherit Lightforge Blessing’s effect?

So again, it’s just trying to organize the design intentions a bit.

The ability I want to design around;

  • Divine Strom

The talent(s) that already effect this ability;

  • Tempest of the Lightbringer
  • Lightforged Blessing
  • Empyrean Legacy
  • Sanctify
  • Burning Crusade

What do I want to be additive to this list, whether its a new effect or something stacking with what’s already there:

Again, doesn’t have to be Consecration. For example it could be:

Solar Wrath
Replaces Divine Storm

  • Unleash a storm of divine energy dealing 25,000 holy damage to all those around you.

  • Casting Solar Wrath grants Darkest before the Dawn, causing your next WoG to also cast Light of Dawn. Stacking 3 times.

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