My hopes for Shadow in 9.0

Classes Priest
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EDIT: I’m putting this right at the top so everyone sees it before they read any further.

Voidform, be it just the mechanics or the whole shabang that came with it, has to go. Personally I could keep the name or the theme or the art, but I know a lot who couldn’t. Either way, I sincerely hope shadow does not play similarly to how it has done in Legion or BFA.

Just a quick rundown of the things I hope to see in shadow’s design going forward in 9.0 and beyond. Obviously I’m not trying to predict the future or pander to any particular people who want certain things out of the spec, these are just the things I feel strongly should be a part of shadow going forward, and I hope to see them next year.

EDIT: Just wanna add as well that I’m mostly a mechanically minded / gameplay focused player. While flavour can be important, everything I really care about going into 9.0 is just about how the spec plays, what buttons I’ve got, and what those buttons do.

1: Pace baked into the rotation / mechanics.

Whether it be the recent adrenaline junky playstyle of voidform, or scrambling to fit haste in every single socket to get those vital devouring plague breakpoints in MoP, shadow has always had a focus on haste as a priority stat, and often feels lost without sufficient amounts, especially early on in an expansion. I’d like to see shadow’s relationship with haste become similar to that of fire’s with crit, have the spec’s mechanics facilitate the pace needed for the spec to function, instead of players needing to focus on a specific stat excessively before the spec works or is fun to play. Especially early in expansions.

2: Removal of the mechanics that underpin Voidform, and replacement of them.

This is an obvious one, and it’s been said by many many people. I don’t mind the button existing in our kit, I don’t really mind the flavour of the void, but I don’t want to be tied to it in the way that it currently works with exponential increasing drain, a lack of control, and a damage pattern incompatible with the challenges modern WoW presents. It’s not enough to just rip it all out though, something meaningful and interesting has to replace it.

I’d also gladly see us move away from the void and back to a focus on vampiric, mind, and pure shadow based spells, but as that’s thematics I don’t really want to get into that discussion here.

3: Devouring Plague as a core single target only DoT that in some way heals.

It’s an iconic spell, though not originally strictly for shadow priests, it’s definitely become our own over the years. Having existed in so many forms, and performed so many roles I don’t really mind how it comes back, as long as it’s a DoT and its value is only on single target. Shadow needs re-anchoring as a dot spec, and with blizzards sweeping nerfs to all specs “multi dot” throughout BFA, returning the concept of single target dots is a good way to do it.

4: Shadow Word: Death’s return as a resource driven execute.

What I mean by this is, within a new resource mechanic, allow SWD to perform the role it did throughout MoP and WoD. An execute that isn’t known just for the extra numbers it puts on the meters, but for how it changes the rotation and feel of the spec. Even in legion when we still had SWD, I honestly could take it or leave it (As I can now), because it wasn’t performing that role. I want buttons I’m excited to get to use, and just a slightly harder hitting void bolt didn’t do that for me.

5: The return of our holy school.

I’m aware there are a lot of void fanatics who enjoy that shadow has gone completely void / old godsy. I love a lot of it, but what I don’t love is getting kicked on shadow and feeling completely helpless whilst other “ex hybrids” have two casting schools to work with and defend themselves. We’re apparently getting back flash heal, and that’s a great start, but before we were “Shadow” we were priests, and I want to feel that again.

Thanks for reading this, it’s a short list, and it’s not some sweeping class change outline or cantankerous rant like you might be used to from me. Just five simple things I’d like to see, and hope maybe 2-3 of them happen in 9.0.

Ellipsis…

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I know some people aren’t happy about casting Holy spells as a Shadow Priest or vice versa with the other specs but personally I don’t mind it.

Priest in general has the sort of “balance” between light and void as a theme, being tied to one or the other but utilizing both in some sort of balance, or the struggle of shadow/insanity versus the light. It fits whatever theme there is, at least to me.

I never played when Devouring Plague existed so I wish they could bring it back in some way, unfortunately it seems like shadow should really be renamed “Void” Priest at this point. There’s only a couple remnants of shadow left.

In the end, I think the majority of players are getting EXACTLY what they’ve been crying out for. Return to class fantasy over spec fantasy, the return of pruned spells and abilities (regardless of the reason for their pruning/without any adjustments potentially) and in turn that will probably impact the team’s ability to rework classes in a significant way. Oh well.

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Remove Voidform and while we’re at it, all this insane void cultist junk that Blizzard has tacked on to Shadow. The spec was never about that. We had vampiric aspects and psychic powers!

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I like this list a lot. Especially point 1. I know it’s been a while since the beginning of BFA (and other expansions), but the excruciating slowness of shadow without haste still haunts me.

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Yes please. Really sick and tired of the void theme for shadow priests. I’d really prefer a return to the slow and subtle vampiric nature of old.

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Agree with point 1, pacing needs to be baked in more so we are not screwed with low haste levels early on. This is the biggest reason why 8.0 and 8.1 felt like total crap more than any other single reason.

Disagree with point 2, I like how fighting insanity drain FEELS and makes buttons I press feel like they matter more. This mechanic encourages tight gcds and movement with real time feedback on how well you perform (or not perform it) Other dps specs they feel more like empty key presses attached to some dmg number. Shadow you FEEL more because of our unique resource system and I don’t want to lose that mini game. Since I’ve played legion shadow I can’t even enjoy anything else in this game since; because it’s that unique and brings a feeling that cannot be replicated. I don’t think scrapping it for a new system will deliver anything better and most likely would just would be a void themed arcane mage. Of all things shadow I’m most passionate about this particular topic and scared about how much I stand to lose personally if they mess it up in the future. A new resource system is just going to alienate some of us that do like it while opening another pandora box system that is doubtful to deliver improvement while delivering on it’s own set of new problems.

#3: Devouring Plague; honestly I used to like this spell a bunch but I really don’t miss it. Affliction is a dot heavier spec and I think shadow feels more distinquished from it being more of a mix that it is today between direct spells and our two dots. I won’t throw a fit if it comes back (unlike how I feel about point #2 but…I really feel it’s just another empty button/ability for no real gain.

#3 SW:Death agree having death give us a huge burst of extra resource would be a nice improvement. I think it would be cool if it affects drain rate somehow; and would feed the adrenaline during the final moments of a boss kill.

#4: I guess in pvp having smite available would solve this; but honestly- If it makes it back into my core rotation it’s going to feel like unpolished classic to me. I’d like to pass on another cast spell that behaves like mind blast in a daily kit taking up space. As a situational option tho; I agree.

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It’s not so much requiring an entirely separate school of damage spells in the same way Ele and Balance do. Shadow hasn’t had smite in its kit since cata, and bringing that back makes very little sense. I’m talking more about PoM, Flash heal, and hymns.

Blizzard will never bring a mechanic as arbitrary and obscure as drain rate to the forefront of shadow, even having it as a set bonus felt like a mistake. Frankly I can’t see a way to add meaningful payoff to SWD within the confines of voidform’s current mechanics, I’ve scratched my head over this one for a long time and I just can’t see a way to reconcile a resource based execute with a resource system that doesn’t allow you to spend or use resources.

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Why can’t it work similar to lucid dreams??? like…to a far lesser degree given the frequency of casting it. tbh it may be just what we need to make up for losing lucid dreams lol

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It’s not a payoff you can quantify, nor does it have an impact in content outside raiding. Insanity’s value is incredibly unstable which means evaluating “how much damage is SWD” is absurdly difficult. We already saw this in legion when we did have SWD, trying to place a value on / balance the insanity it generated, when 70-90% of the time it’s completely worthless.

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but lucid dreams worked out so I guess I don’t get the concern

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I’m not sure a two minute cooldown that is only usable for value in a 3-4 second window every minute, which has to be held for 30-40 seconds on pull, and is essentially useless in all content except raiding, is a success. It’s ‘fine’ because it’s not a spell, it’s an essence we get to choose and change based on the content we’re doing. SWD is a shadow spell, one I’m sure we’d all like to see return as core to our playstyle and useful in all content.

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yea forgot about mythic+ and non-raid environments; fair enough

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I just think it sucks that you guys only have one dps spec and it’s a dot ramping one

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This, I fully agree that we need to have haste baked into the spec so that at low gear levels it doesn’t feel slow. I would like to have something like backdraft that destro locks have that would allow for us to not require an insane amount of haste to function. although it would probably end up with haste as a #2 stat maybe we could have haste baked into the specs mastery somehow. so that we can use it as a stat and not feel like it’s wasted.

I do enjoy voidform, but I will agree that it is challenging to balance. it’s either OP or worthless. I don’t know how to fix it exactly but I do agree with most of your point of lack of control of burst, and ramping of damage, when most mobs die before you have your full damage available or are just being picked off at that point.

I agree. but as I said earlier about getting a backdraft type haste bonus. would you be opposed to Dplauge being used in that way? I don’t want it to be a copy of UA’s from afflction. but having it on a short duration ST dot that adds haste + heal. I think that would be amazing. I don’t think it’s damage needs to be high though to offset it’s utility. I still would like it to be used rotationally, just not as priority #1.

Just give this back baseline. It’s iconic to the class. it would even out the rotation a little. and just all in all would be a good button to have on your bar.

This. Although I don’t care if we have the holy school for PVE. I do want it just for PVP. I want to be able to use a holy skill to get a interupt used, so that I can free cast shadow, or other way around depending on situation. I feel like in pvp we don’t do insane damage because were easly countered by high uptime mellee classes. where if your kicked on shadow you can’t use your biggest survival CD in dispersion. with all your skill being tide to school there isn’t any meaningful way to out play it other then get the other guy to miss on a shadow casted skill. and the higher the ladder you go the less that will happen.

GG’s all and embrace the VOID!!!

edit: how do I get it so that it doen’t look like i quoted his entire post? i was just quoting the sections?
edit 2: thank you elvenbane.

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I wish they would do this so bad. I would much rather have dark archangel wings, ravens flying around my head and dealing with shadow orbs than be some crazy guy with tentacles and void stuff. It especially bothers me how they changed it in Legion because that’s the same expansion where void elves were introduced. Couldn’t they have stuck all the old god whispers with them? Lol

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I hate how we went from “shadow” priests to this now “void” priest idea seemingly overnight with no explanation what so ever. So what they we follow Nzoth and Xal’atath. That is not enough of a reason to completely gut the class fantasy in place of what the devs want. There was so much lore behind priest dedicating theirselves to the shadow school and that was all removed overnight. #removevoid #bringbackshadow

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I mean… you say that, but then we get what we had in legion. A button that did almost nothing, and just existed to be pressed on cd / when it lit up. It didn’t have any impact on your rotation, and barely any on your performance. I feel like after the SWD of MoP and WoD just wanting the button back is selling ourselves short.

EDIT:

Just an add on, since I was reminded of this rather fundamental thing and realised I didn’t have it in the post originally.

Devouring plague, regardless of what sort of spell it is (Builder, spender, medium cd nuke, constant dot etc etc etc…) it needs to heal. Not necessarily for 100% of damage dealt, but it needs to feel like using it has a noticeable effect on my hp afterwards.

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First I just want to say I agree and support every point Ellipsis made in their top post. Below I want to further elaborate on these points.

1: Pace baked into the rotation / mechanics.

The other component here is what I call “Harmony”, or sometimes discussed as “Flow”. One of my biggest criticisms of Voidform’s playstyle is the 3 GCD cycle of Void Bolt, where we do something like:

  • Void Bolt → usually Mind Blast → cast 1/3rd of a Mind Flay then cancel → Void Bolt
  • Void Bolt → 2/3rds of a Mind Flay then cancel → Void Bolt
  • Many other equally horrible variations

All variations are dissonant, they lack ‘Harmony’, the musical definition is:

the combination of simultaneously sounded musical notes to produce chords and chord progressions having a pleasing effect.

The design of BFA Shadow is so Dissonant (opposite of Harmony) that I have to conclude it’s intentional dissonance - perhaps to accentuate the “Insanity” theme they’ve pegged us with. Whether intentional or not though, it’s a failure.

It’s akin to handing a child a violin, and with no prior musical knowledge or training, asking them to emulate a high tempo song. The result is chaos, perhaps meant to symbolize insanity.

So not only must Shadow have consistent pacing baked into the spec, whether fast (Legion) or slow (early Cata), abilities must flow together harmoniously. The beauty of MOP Shadow, was that Shadow Orbs were 8s beats within a rhythm, even when the chord inbetween each beat was different, there was music in MOP Shadow.

Shadow Orbs had design problems of their own, but the nostalgia for MOP Shadow, I think, is a yearning to hear that Shadowsong again, not the cacophony of noise that is BFA Shadow.

2: Removal of the mechanics that underpin voidform, and replacement of them.

Yes, Kill Voidform :slight_smile: Though if I could go back and revise that sentiment now, I’d say “Kill Insanity” instead. Voidform is very aesthetically pleasing, the real issue isn’t the spell ‘Voidform’, it’s Insanity. The purpose of Insanity was to maximize Voidform uptime, but I think I confused the message by conflating them. It’s Insanity and the Disharmony of Voidform’s playstyle (described above) that are to blame.

3: Devouring Plague as a core single target only DoT that in some way heals.

I’m not a fan of the name itself, I’d prefer to anchor it to any other aspect of Shadow’s identity because “Plagues” are more of a DK thing now. Call it Devouring Despair to link it with our Mind theme, or Devouring Thirst to link it to our Vampirism theme, or something. But yes, not having a third DoT, which is both powerful and single target, I think undermined our identity, and needs to be returned.

4: Shadow Word: Death’s return as a resource driven execute.

When Death feels worthless, it’s because it’s potency gets diluted with all our other execute mechanics.
Death originally dealt damage to the Spriest, this not only allowed us to Death out of CC, but increased the damage budget of the spell to compensate the self-harm/risk in using it.
Putting two charges on it made each cast feel half as powerful, because it was.
Giving us Twist of Fate meant Death had to get nerfed heavily to compensate for the TOF execute spike.
When Death gave Shadow Orbs, and now Insanity, part of it’s budget is reallocated to the potential benefit of the resource it provides.
Slap all those together and Death feels like garbage (because it is).

The nostalgia for Death to return is interesting, because any of us can take Death today as a talent, and yet ~nobody does. The nostalgia obviously isn’t for the spell icon itself, but for the power it once represented.

I propose that Death should return, but it should:

  • Hurt the spriest again, increasing the damage it deals to enemies
  • Only have a single charge, but hit nearly twice as hard
  • Twist of Fate should be removed, with the execute damage put back in Death
  • The cooldown resets on kill (or specifically ‘takedown’ within a few seconds)

I’m not sure it needs to actually generate resources the way Ellipsis thinks. I think the gameplay Death promotes is, Spriests want to be keenly aware of targets they can use Death on, and ideally reset it to use it again quickly. Fishing through mobs for execute targets (or chains!) is a gameplay behaviour, doing too many in a row should also be a risk to the Spriest (from the self-harm).

5: The return of our holy school.

Completely agree here, while personally I think Shadow should have strong passive self-heals while DPS’ing (Vampiric Touch, Devouring Plague, Vampiric Embrace), when we need to heal allies, it should be Holy heals. I’ve always felt we are Priests first, and Psychic Vampires second: I’m very glad to hear the devs echo that priority at Blizzcon.

On a short tangent, this is why I hate the “Insanity” resource. As priests, we’re Disciplined practitioners of our faiths. The Faustian Bargain we’re currently engaged with Xal’atath / N’zoth feels very stolen from Warlocks (specifically Demonology). Warlocks make Faustian bargains for power beyond their control. Priests are self-sacrificing stalwarts.

Yvaelle would never bargain with an Old God, Elune is my one and only God. Xal’atath was an adorable knaifu, but it made sense when limited to ‘sassy repoire’, and made no sense at “Insanity” and “Surrender To Madness”. That’s not us, it never was.

All priests wield both Shadow and Light. Shadowpriests are experts in wielding Shadow safely. We do this through our self-discipline, and our unshakeable personal faith (ex. Elune). We might grow tentacles out of the ground, but never out of ourselves.

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There was a very distinct and important difference between its role in each of these resource systems though, one I’ve discussed with Nyelle. Insanity is not a discrete resource, you can’t even roughly convert it directly into damage. Orbs you could, rather comfortably (1 orb = 1/3 DP + gubbins such as MFI uptime), which gave us an ability that not only felt good, but was clear and obvious in its purpose. It wasn’t just that we as players knew what to do with it and what to expect of it right off the bat, it’s that the spell itself knew what it was doing.

Maybe I just have more fondness for the feeling of MoP WoD SWD than most, you know more than most how much time I spend thinking about what shadow is, was, has been, and could be, so maybe it’s a product of that? Either way, SWD to me has always felt like a spell that should be much “bigger” than just doing damage.

Even something like a CD reset, which I see you’ve encofrced in your recent edit, just feels flat to me compared to what we got from SWD when we knew exactly how much power it would provide each time, and the profound effect it had on the rotation once it was usable.

I’m also not fond at all of the whole “SWD deals damage back to you” thing of old. Especially with how fight design has evolved over the course of WoW’s history.

Minor nitpick. Each channelled spell is 2 GCDs. So they’re split in half, not thirds.

Also

  • Void Bolt → Full Flay → Void Bolt

And really any combination of the 3 GCD loop that doesn’t involve interrupting a channelled spell doesn’t feel particularly dissonant. Though I do agree that a spec that constantly wants to interrupt itself and has so many similar abilities vying for first priority isn’t particularly elegant or comfortable.

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