MW needs updates to stay current with the meta for class design in pvp

Classes Monk
1

What the title means is that every other healer has a strategic advantage over MW in pvp. I genuinely believe that in order for MW to be good, our healing just needs to be straight up broken. Every single ability needs to essentially be a Lay on Hands, otherwise we fall behind. We don’t have anything else*

What MW needs is some broken as heck mechanics that makes everybody else grumble about how OP monks are. Every other class has something like that, but not monks. Allow me to expain:

Resto Druids: Grove Guardian, extensive HoTs that allow them to heal while CC’d, spammable clone, bash, rip and pounce when talented, barkskin, ironbark

Pres evokers: Super mobile, big dam, Nullifying Shroud, immune to interrupts with Hover, spammable sleep if talented, Emerald Communion, Oppressing Roar, Time Dilation

Holy Paladin: Bubble, bop, lay on hands, sac, freedom, divine protection, HoJ (30 second cd on a 5 second stun), blinding light or rep (spammable when talented), searing glare, and they only really cast 3 spells because all of their healing is instant cast and procs.

Disc priest: Amazing damage for healer, 30 second psychic scream, bubbles that are casually better than life cocoon is, life swap, ulty pen, pain suppression, fade, MC, mass dispel

Holy Priest: spirit of redemption, guardian spirit, chastise, life swap, fade, MC, mass dispel

Resto shaman: Grounding, Tremor, static field, ascendance, spirit walker’s grace, stone bulwark, earthgrab, cap totem, hex, poison cleansing totem, purge, link, ancestors

Now let’s look at the MW pros: Tiger’s lust, zen spheres, ring of peace/song of chiji, diffuse magic, port

Let’s compare those pros the MW cons: Life cocoon is bad in dampening, renewing mists having that many modifiers is really bad, throughput healing style in general is really bad into dampening, paralyze too short and DRs with too many more important stuns for how short it is, leg sweep CD too long, revival/restoral healing too low for how long the CD is so revival only matters when it can remove dots, invoke yu’lon/chiji really bad without jade bond talent, chi wave is really bad, zen pulse is really bad, renewing mists only worth pressing for the modifiers, monk mobility no longer matters when everybody else is also super mobile, not enough survivability, needs to sit down and stop moving to cast heals more than other healers

Ultimately on a level playing field MW would fall apart without OP heals because we have limited utility that barely contributes to the outcome of the game. Other classes have utility that reduces damage taken by teammates, or makes them immune to interrupts or stuns, or barely cast anything yet keep their entire team alive. I don’t think there is a single healer that relies more on the team carry than MW does. So I would like to propose some broken AF mechanics for MW to have that would bring them up to par with other healers:

Meditation: Can cast while under the affects of disorients, stuns, silences and incapacitation (due to our meditation training at the monastaries)

Renewing Mists changes: Just simplify the modifier on renewing mists to “Increase healing received from monk by X%” and increase the healing substantially so we have TWO whole good hots.

Renewing cleanse: Renewing mists purges diseases and poisons every time it ticks

Life cocoon changes: Decreases damage taken by 50% (bubble amount drastically reduced)

Paralyze: Stun length increased to 7 seconds

Leg sweep CD reduced to 30 seconds

Tiger’s Lust range increased to 40 yards

Restoral/revival healing increased 10x

Increase healing on chi wave and zen pulse 5x

Plz blizzard

Sincerely, a sweaty nerd that plays too much solo shuffle as a MW :slight_smile:

2

In pve too. We got to be good for like 3 weeks and now it’s looking like we are still stuck in season 1 just with different dungeons.

PvP you might prefer cast weaver in bgs. I find it fun at least especially in ctf. becoming immune to a variety of cc is very nice with celestial. I capped a flag once (: and it’s the only place i play with any caster oriented talents. It does feel a bit like…hm…harder to survive in control the point maps, compared to like hpriest or rdruid. But in push the cart and ctf feels fun.

We’ve been asking for DR but blizzard doesn’t want to give it. Instead you can now choose a better jade bond that doesn’t actually solve this inadequacy and Elusive Mist (our only form of dr) feels silly at 6% and requiring a continious channel where you can only take 2 actions. They even went so far as to remove our avoidance aura further reducing our utility in group content.

oh no way, no way. Maybe as a pvp only talent and even then idk cause it would just make some specs (I’m imagining udk but don’t know the state of udk in pvp atm) feel bad. And some of those specs already struggle with mobility and other issues.

I’d even take it just being 20 sec or 15 sec cd. It’s just a worse freedom of movement in regards to being used for its cleanse effect and I think the cleanse is its primary use in combat. Sometimes for speed…but usually not.

I’d like this too but just for chi wave. It’s not really feeling that great to use. Maybe not for a while

3

If I remember correctly paladins had a passive aura that did that in Legion. I recall playing smokebomb as a mistweaver and the assassination rogue + unholy dk I played with absolutely hated facing paladins because they destroyed us. I wonder what happened to that? I stand by my suggested change. Maybe it could be changed to only dispel when renewing mist drops off the target, either by ending or getting dispelled, but MW needs some real utility and mechanics that make them more useful as healers.

Fair, that would also be nice.

I think big buffs to all of MW’s passive healing is necessary. I think that it feels really bad to have all your healing come from three spells (CJL, Enveloping and Vivify), CDs, and the bottom 15% or less of your healing is comprised of like 12 different things.

As a result, MW is very CD dependent. At least with the last round of MW buffs it doesn’t feel as much like we are relying entirely on charges of thunder focus tea to survive, but it would be nice if chosing talents like Chi Wave and Zen Pulse really felt like they were making a difference in my healing output. It’s the same reason why I suggested that renewing mist should have all their modifiers replaced with a simple “increases healing received from monk by X%” and it’s healing buffed significantly.

Ultimately what I hope to convey, is that there’s more to healing than simply healing output. We need utility like “meditation” that I suggested, or “renewing cleanse”, stuns to last longer and have shorter CDs, and cocoon should reduce damage taken on top of the bubble effect.

4

They should bring back the OG “if you use paralyze from behind the target” which increased its duration

Also, it’s really annoying that paralysis always dispells dots. It means we can’t play with DOT based specs without it being really awkward.

I think they should either (in order of what would be best):

  1. Give us a “time stop” paralysis where dots don’t tick while the target is paralyzed.
  2. Make paralysis not break on DOT damage (kinda busted).
  3. Make paralysis not dispell dots (so it just breaks anyway from the dots) as a choice node or something. Could be on a choice node with an “improved paralysis” where we can choose whether to take the extra duration if cast from behind but dispells dots vs not dispelling dots.

Having one of the hero trees like Master of Harmony make life cocoon also apply a DR would fit in pretty good too, even for PVE.

I also think that, in general, they should make monk’s interrupt a short ranged kick. Like 8-10 yards. Flavor it as “Fires a rope spear at the enemy’s throat, interrupting all spellcasting for 3 seconds”. Could also be a choice node with something.

They should also bring back Zen Meditation for all monks and the effect that makes it redirect harmful spells to you. Make you magical CC immune too during it. 3 minute cooldown or so. This could even be a PVP talent

5

I feel this so deeply and it’s a constant source of stress/annoyance. You can mist ramp for zen pulse if you play that but it’s not very satisfying and can’t be perpetuated forever. Too much of what we do is tied to rng. Gust of mist itself is just a worse crit stat from what I can tell. I’m sure in pvp you’re playing like haste->vers->crit (or maybe mastery idk atp)

Just make it an alternate node for Calming Coalescence. Or heck just buff cocoon baseline to have Calming’s upscale and add the dr node. The cocoon doesn’t scale with high end pve content. It buys maybe seconds before it’s gone. It makes CC feel required for it to be worthy of its cd time. Yulon/chiji chi cocoons applying a DR instead of enveloping would also work for me. Or make dr after expiration an alternate node option for calming coalescence. I think it would kill CC if it was good enough (not like 5% dr cop out stuff)

6

My apologies again guys, Blizzard knows I play Monk. I thought they’d only cripple brewmaster, but sounds like they are neglecting MW too. I’d re-roll but that’d be cruel to the other classes.

7

Screw it, reviving this thread because we need to.

Make us immune to interrupts

Make transcendence: transfer usable while silenced

I still stand by my Meditation recommendation, allow us to cast while stunned, albeit at a slowed rate

Paralyze should be 7 seconds long

MW monks should just run at 250% movement speed no matter what and be immune to slows

Every single button we press should just instantly top everybody on our team, even at 75% dampening

Crackling Jade Lightning should literally oneshot people. It’s laughable that people were scared of the damage it was doing pre-season when other healers were still doing more damage than mistweavers over the course of the match

MW is still the worst healer mechanically speaking in arena, idc we either need to be literal gods or we need some unfair mechanics that make us immune to interrupts and crowd control effects and our team unkillable while that’s happening. We need some damage reduction for our team.

8

if we ever get to vote on pvp devs, I’m choosing you sillylilguy

You and I could go on a supervillain arc where we take over the world.

9

Ty

Let us spam cast song of chiji

Let us have both ring of peace and song of chiji

Real idea time: Soothing mist can’t be interrupted, but you can no longer cast enveloping or vivify through soothing mist. The catch: Soothing mist healing is like borderline crazy good, and even better with enveloping and renewing mist on the target. Spamming vivfy would do more healing, but soothing mist would be a legitimate and real heal that can top your teammates under moderate, but not super high pressure. The fact that you would need to manually cast env and viv on your target would balance out the effects of soothing mist being a really decent heal.

Make the soothing mist cast by your jade serpent statue have a big damage reduction component on the target it’s healing so that your statue is actually super important, and a talent that causes JSS to heal all your teammates, at the cost of reduced damage reduction effect

And again, I reiterate: RENEW MIST NEEDS TO CALM DOWN WITH THE MODIFIERS. 15% healing buff while active, and that’s it. I don’t want to try and keep track of 15 different timers for 15 different modifiers that appear on a target with renewing mist

Also, nerf hpal to the ground. Remove spammable repentance, and make it last 3 seconds. Make stuns and silences last 3x as long on holy paladins and have no duration reduction. I hate them and they are stupid >:(

10

It does feel like a lot of caster classes have some way to become immune to interrupts but cast weaver does not. I guess we are very mobile though

Or while banished or anything really. I feel like we used to have a talent that made it usable while stunned but idr if we still have this.

I’d think 5 since most cc seems to cap out at 5 at least in arenas.

I feel like you’re trolling now. We have a talent that makes us immune to slows and chi-ji has this as a default ability.

you’re definitely trolling

We can drink mana without meld, we can be very slippery, some of our fist weaving abilities use no mana-…

I take back everything I said, blizz hire this person they will bring honor to this dojo.

Yea why can druid spam cyclone? They can just interrupt your channel/spell cast whenever even if it only banishes you for 1 second. So ridiculous.

YOOOOOOOO elusive mist from statue + monk = 12%? BIG?

You’re an absolute god for saying this. I didn’t think anyone would come in here and describe a healer I’ve had no problems with as annoying but you are a legend calling them out. Please talk about how pres evoker should randomly blow up and their accounts get deleted too

11

Then it’s clear to me that paralyze needs to be 10 seconds long. No compromises. 10 second long para into 4 second leg sweep, 9 seconds of triple song of chiji. GG, MW finally on par with other healers.

I’m just a silly lil guy

We can drink mana tea because it’s part of our toolkit, not because we are blessed. Blizzard balances our mana consumption around the expectation that we’ll use mana tea. Our mana is terrible, in matches longer than 2 minutes long we oom, and I specifically take the Energizing Brew talent because of it. Just suck mana down like a classic muscle car sucks gas.

Also, our mobility is garbage. It used to be good, but then Blizzard started making other classes mobile too. When every class is mobile, no class is. Our mobility is severely hindered by the fact that we need to sit down and channel soothing mist, otherwise we don’t really have much in the way of healing. Our HoTs don’t support our team very well and our two main sources of healing outside of enveloping mist’s hot is vivify and crackling jade lightning. Everything else is maintenance buffer baloney that doesn’t compensate enough. That’s why I believe that we need renewing mist, zen pulse, and chi wave healing buffs so they’re real heals.

I refuse to acknowledge fistweaving or hybrid.

Like I said, we either need mechanical improvements or all our heals need to be god tier in order for MW to be good

12

I would like to believe that this thread and my efforts have led to the pvp tuning changes we’re seeing on tuesday. Obviously there’s no way to tell for sure, but I can dream.

It’s obvious they’re moving in the direction of “literal god-tier heals”. They probably can’t make huge changes to how classes work until patch 11.2, which is fine. For now, this will do :slight_smile:

Hopefully in 11.2 we see some real mechanic changes, perhaps inspired by this thread?