I was talking mainly about farming endgame resources for profit. Righteous orbs, for example. A person needs gold. So he wants to farm righteous orbs and sell them. If he asks four others to help him, and he’s being honest by letting them know that he wants them just to sell and not for an enchant, i.e. for “greed,” then those other four people are probably going to want to roll, too, so the orb drops would get split between them.
Players and characters are not the same thing, because each character is not an independent personality with its own needs and wants. Alts, particularly multiboxer alts, are typically not characters that people rolled to advance through endgame. They often exist merely as a tool to gain extra resources that can be funneled to the person’s main.
In my example above, the multiboxer spends $75/month to have a 5-man team that can farm Strat Live, so he gets 5 times as many orbs per time investment, which can then be sold and all of the gold used to buy consumables, enchants, BoE/crafted gear, rep turn-in’s, etc. to support his main. And I think that’s generally how it works, more often than not. He’s paying $60 extra per month specifically to be able to farm 5 times the resources per time investment, thus it’s pay-to-win.
To those arguing that multiboxers gain no advantage, I would counter that there wouldn’t be many multiboxers if it didn’t give them an advantage. It’s kind of the whole point, IMO. And I think those arguing otherwise are being disengenous, thus the tobacco lawyer comparison.
You said it. This is the whole point! Characters and individuals are not the same. The game is not balanced around individuals it is balanced around characters. Therefore gaining more characters is NOT more power per dollar spent.
If a person spending 75$ per month gets 5x as many orbs as a person spending 15$ per month. Then they’re both getting the exact same amount of orbs per dollar spend…there for no one is gaining an advantage. They’re both getting 1x the orbs per 15 dollars…ITS THE SAME ORB TO DOLLAR RATIO.
Also, don’t compare me to people who knowingly sold cancer causing addictive substances marketed towards children. It is not helpful and does not help you or your position.
Not true. There’s Tanks (that aren’t MBing) and calling “dibs” on Righteous Orbs for their “services”. Which both MBers and normal Groups still have to hope they drop, at all. That being said, I’ve been in a PuG, where the Tank ML’d our run to get what he wanted, so no. Not everyone is rolling for the “chance”. It’s called agreeing to Loot Rules.
Yes, but Characters is the only thing that matters. AI Mobs are still Characters. Sure, a Player is not controlling them, but a Mob is, nonetheless, still a Character. And, you can’t look at the scenario as Players vs Players but Characters vs Characters. In the case of PvP, that’s the point, so you’re not fighting AI (although, AV could be argued that you are but moving on), the scenario is still the same. I’d never 1v5. It’s a silly idea, and one shouldn’t do that.
Not true. Got Guilds farming instances, as well. Either way, is this what we’re defining as “winning the game”? Collecting Righteous Orbs? Which still needs to be farmed for. MBers do not magically obtain them, simply for MBing.
I never made the claim that MBing has zero advantages, I stated it’s not P2W. There’s ways to have advantages in this game without MBing. I have a friend who PvPs and is Rank 3 + Exalted with Darn, and I used their double discount (because I don’t PvP) to purchase my Darn mount for only 800g instead of the 900g for simply being just Exalted with Darn.
I would argue that the game was originally balanced around characters under the assumption that each player would only be playing one character. That assumption proved false, because people found a way to use 3rd party programs to exploit it. But Blizzard makes money from the exploit, so they have understandably not disallowed it. They exist to make profit, after all.
You just made my case for why it’s pay-to-win. They are paying an extra $60 to get 5 times the orbs. They are basically buying orbs from Blizzard. Might as well put them in a cash shop.
I’m in agreement that the program is a problem. However, it’s not the same as having multiple accounts. And, everything you’ve mentioned can still be accomplished without said program.
No, they’re not. Having multiple accounts doesn’t magically put Righteous Orbs in a MBer’s inventory. They have to farm for it, just like everybody else.
Multiboxing existed in Everquest and was/is very popular there. The devs of WoW came from Everquest. There was no assumption at all there would be no boxing here.
But they’re not gaining any relative power. For it to be pay-to-win you have to be gaining extra things for your money. If you’re paying the same dollars per orb you’re not gaining anything extra for your money.
This is like saying a man goes and buys 5 tacos for the price of 5 tacos. And then a group of 5 people each buy 1 taco for the price of 1 taco…and then the complaining that the guy with 5 tacos had an unfair advantage…when they got the same amount of tacos for the exact same price. Its asinine to me.
I love the argument that the exact same responses from TBC when they decided to put it in the rules that it’s allowed are strawmanning, mental gymnastics, arguing in bad faith, etc.
I guess if you don’t agree it’s easier to claim the other side is cheating somehow. Oh hey, the point of the whole thread…
I don’t do BG’s so I can’t offer anything there, but I might be able to offer some insights elsewhere.
Fair enough, but other than calling it cheating for the sake of calling it cheating. Why do you call it cheating? What rules are being broken / exploited?
They might only allow it for money purposes. I don’t think anyone can prove this is / isn’t the case and either side can only assume this might be a or the reason why.
My opinion on the idea of only allowed because of money is. The company that owns WoW isn’t a charity site. So doing things so they are generating money isn’t anything wrong. It’s no different than people gaming the market by selling things higher than market value on the AH.
It’s unlikely you could and only by distorting and twisting the meaning of the words. I would object strenuously if you tried. The point would be that sexual infidelity is an accepted definition of cheating that would not apply to wow. The word in fact has more than one definition. Unsporting or unsportsmanlike is another accepted definition that very clearly would apply to the game of wow
At this point we lack the data but if a poll was taken of wow players we could find the accepted standard. Anecdotal information while insufficient is all we have and I would argue it’s overwhelmingly against multiboxing.
I actually agree and when I discuss my own ideas on the issue I argue that it’s pay to win. Calling it cheating is unclear. I only enter the argument that it is cheating after other people have started it. And only because I care about language. I love that words have complexity, have more than one simple definition, because the world they are describing is complex. I love those who have a large vocabulary, know the complex nature of that vocabulary, and use it with nuance. I disagree with most of the philosophy of W.F.Buckley but I admire his exquisite use of language.
It’s a simple fact that one can follow the rules of the game and still be cheating. To claim otherwise is objectively incorrect. I hate this sloppy and shoddy use of language and I’ve pushed back against it here on several topics. It is an objective factual truth that there are several definitions of the word, some of which can be used to claim it isn’t cheating, some of which can be used to claim it is, and some of which don’t apply in this instance. Refusing to acknowledge that just illustrates your ignorance. Arguing that multiboxing is cheating is unproductive but I will always defend language as we must understand and use it in all it’s complexity. It’s all we have to communicate
You and I disagree fundamentally. You think people should get what they pay for in games, i.e. pay-to-win is perfectly fine. You think that if a single person wants to pay for 5 accounts, they should get 5 times the rewards. You even said in an earlier thread, if I remember, that you’d be totally cool if all raid gear was BoE and/or purchasable from a vendor, and obtainable without even raiding.
I disagree. I think it is preferable if rewards in games are commensurate with time and effort put in combined with skill. Just the way I feel, sorry.
I don’t like cash shops. I don’t like gold-buying. I don’t like paid boosts. I don’t like multiboxing. Or any other form of pay-to-win in which a credit card can be used to skip gameplay to get to a game’s rewards or in the case of multiboxing, multiply the rewards a person receives per time/effort spent playing the game.
If a person wants to buy 5 tacos, fine, but they should only be able to eat one taco at a time like everyone else, not somehow get 4 extra mouths installed onto their face so they can eat 5 tacos in the time it takes everyone else to eat one.
