Put Burrow in Stone Bulwark Totems place and make Stone Bulwark baseline. Why this should happen:
-AG was a personal defensive as well as off healing. Ele and Enh need something outside of honor talents that make up for that huge loss. Ele gained Storm conduit, but that will now compete with Burrow/Grounding/Shamanism/Static field/Totem of Wrath.
-Ele and Enh honor talents are crowded with strong defensive talents. Burrow is way too good to be an honor talent, no other class in the game has a personal defensive this strong in their honor talents. itâs like making Divine Shield or Turtle or Ice block an honor talent. It takes up a permanent slot leading to less freedom of choice. Moving Burrow out allows Ele/Enh shamans more freedom to pick between other defensive honor talents and dps honor talents.
-Healing stream buffs do not make up for the self healing AG was capable of. 4-5m healing every shuffle round, 8-10m healing every Blitz game, 6-7m every 3s match all on myself. Healing stream will never do this.
If devs donât want to do this, then improve other things like Earth Shield. Make Earth shield do more healing for enhancement and have it provide armor for example.
I really do like stormweaver. It makes the spec feel more whole.
Iâve thought about this before but what would it do for ele and resto? Idk if the class tree is a good fit and it would also suck to have to take it in the spec tree. Sadly idk if thereâs a good solution.
Maybe we stick to getting burrow in the class tree and at least it frees up a pvp spot
It wouldnât do anything for those two because they have NS already. It would be an Enh specific thing in the class tree, some class trees have 1 or 2 spec specific talents, and I think this is a good case for doing that. NS is useful for Ele and Resto, and both have access to Farseer which makes NS even better (turns it into AS) while Enh doesnât.
But yeah my first choice would be Burrow in the class tree I just feel they are against it for some reason, but it really should happen.
This should really happen. Burrow is also such a cool ability for shamans in general I feel like all shamans should have access to it, not just PvP shamans.
Im not like opposed to getting some compensation for losing AG if the choice is between nothing or burrow, but if the option to get something else Iâd rather they give something that more so fit the role that AG when looking at it as a personal defensive which was sustain.
Iâd want them to them to add something like a retooled Shamanistic Rage, only instead of granting mana it provides leech in addition to a small DR. Something like giving 10%-15% leech and 25%-30% DR for about 10 seconds would be what I would have in mind. It would serve the same role that AG had as a personal defensive without being as overpowered. I think even having it on the GCD with a bit of longer duration would be viable.
Or they could just give Astral Shift 2 charges. That is literally better than Burrow.
I get that the âtwo of youâ are really set on burrow coming into the class tree for mainly Enhance PvP but from an Ele perspective Burrow has the same appeal as taking Spirit Wolf and AFKing for 4 seconds. Let alone the fact that Burrow is infinitely better for Enhance than it is for Ele and Resto given its damage component actually scales and the times youâre running into melee as Ele and Resto outside of planned specific events is small.
This is kinda derange thinking. Besides the fact that this would just flat out give Enhance an extra pvp talent and defensive, defensives are not the thing that we should granting to one spec and offering nothing in return to two other specs, especially given Enhance is stronger defensively in PvE than the other two (which is the core focus of this game and PvE is why they changed AG). Enhance already gets a benefit from not needing to path to NS, they flat out get 3 talents points in the class tree to use wherever they wish.
This suggestion is even more derange consider giving 1 spec an extra defensive in all content and offer nothing to the other specs of that class. By this logic, Enhance should not have access to Spirit Walk or Gust of Wind because they already have a moment ability in the form of Feral Lunge. Sounds crazy and unfair right?
Iâd also like you or your âfriendâ of a class that flat out has different nodes in the class tree between specs and what those differences are. Not that the tooltip of a talent is different between specs (such as Enhanced Imbues where only the % are different between specs) or that the same talent functions different between specs, an example of where flat out talent A is only present for Specs 1 and 2 and talent B is in the same exact spot but only for Spec 3.
If said talent is in the class tree and present while somebody is doing PvE content (M+, raid, delves) then its not exclusive to PvP and a PvE player has a right to weigh in. Likewise, it would be perfectly valid for a PvP focus player to come into a thread discussing talent suggestions from a PvE perspective to highlight how said suggestions could have massive negative impacts on how the spec/class plays in PvP.
If this was a discussion about adjusting talents exclusive to PvP, then Iâd have no place in here. But his suggestion affects PvE talent choices and blatantly favors one singular spec in both PvE and PvP.
Well according to OP (and his second account) I actually wouldnât gain a defensive as an Ele Shaman because NS is useful to me. Resto doesnât get the defensive either. Only Enhance gets to have this because they donât use NS. Makes sense and seems fair given AG got removed for all 3 specs that one singular spec gets compensated with an Immunity in the class tree right?
And yall wonder why the Devs ignore you PvPers? Half of you canât read and the other half are out of touch with reality cooking up toxic waste level ideas.
Literally giving us AG back or giving us a 2nd charge of Astral Shift is infinitely better than Burrow when considering every form of content. Burrow is piss compared to every other immunity in the game given its immunity effect is only leveraged if you used it before an event you wish avoid (outside of movement effects) vs something like bubble that can just be used afterwards. Talking about PvE (If itâs in the Class Tree then PvE is part of the discussion), Queenbanes on Nexus Princess is a good example since you need to have it actually apply to you for the masks movements which means Burrow is largely useless since it wont remove the debuff off you. The fact it also places you underground and makes you untargetable likely will mean that youâd be unable to collide with orbs, spell effects, or register as being within a soak which is main reason youâd opt to bring an Immunity class (ex. soaking orbs during Mythic Fyrakk intermission, upheavals on Mythic SLG ).
Having Burrow also does not make up for the fact we lost a sustain CD (AG) to allow us stay alive while focusing fully on damage output whether in PvP (during a go on a target) or PvE (High damage intake phase with a dps check like Royal Condemnation + 2nd Acolytes on Mythic Queen). Burrow has uses but one of them is not going to be is popping all your CDs then using Burrow for 5 whole seconds. If not AG coming back, then literally just giving us another charge of Astral Shift to use during those moments shores up this gap that Burrow would never be able to fill.
Literally the only thing having Burrow class tree is it gives you a free PvP talent and barely anything for PvE uses to which it shouldnât be in the Class Tree if its fundamentally a PvP talent. If yall want to stick something in the Class Tree it has to be viable for both gameplay types. Burrow aint it.
I said make it baseline. It should not be in the talent tree.
Therefore adding it takes nothing from pve and also gives nothing if you say it is useless in pve, keeping things neutral but also freeing up a much needed pvp talent for pvp.
AG/Astral shift is a completely different discussion.
Ok. I want you think realistically about this: if Wind Sear, Astral Shift, Frost Shock, and SBT arenât baseline, what makes you think theyâre gonna go AYLMAO and chuck a PvP ability as a baseline ability? And if they are gonna throw a defensive as a baseline ability, why do you think its not going to be Astral Shift?
Like we go about thinking about this in fantasy world while hitting the pipe completely devoid from reality or think about this in a realistic way. And the realistic thing is they would shove it into the same spot that AG is currently in if weâre lucky. Remember these are the same devs that initially in beta thought it would be a good idea to shove Flurry from the class tree into Enhanceâs spec tree and then delete a pathing option. These are the same devs that have us pathing through either Thunderstorm + Thundershock/Traveling Storms, Totemic Project, or Poison Cleanse Totem to get SBT where there are alot of cases where those talents are pure waste outside of pathing to SBT.
Why do you keep saying this as if I am pretending to be on a âsecond accountâ its the same account and that is my alt character man, I am not hiding that stop acting like you are a detective its embarrassing. I use that alt to sometimes âbumpâ important threads because there arenât many shamans around to keep discussions going outside of the shaman tank thread one. I do this for my own threads and other peoples when important ideas come up. I talk the exact same way, I make it obvious its me.
As for the rest of what you are saying, I dont disagree that the Stormweaver suggestion was bad. Thats probably not the solution. If they wanted to they could just put that in the spec tree in place of Improved Maelstrom weapon and make that baked in baseline. But I dont really think this needs to happen if Burrow became a class tree talent.
The point that I think you are missing about Burrow is that the goal is to solve the issue for both PvErs and PvPers at the same time. Giving us 2 charges of Wall does not really fix the issue of having our honor talents bloated with extremely good defensives, which take up spots from other talents ie utility and dps talents, and even other defensive talents. Example being Burrow is basically permanently taken, grounding usually is as well since it is also an insanely strong defensive utility button, that leaves us with 1 talent spot for Static charge totem/totem of wrath/stormweaver/shamanism. So we are choosing between a utility spell, a really good defensive spell and 2 really good dps spells, which feels kinda bad.
If you go through any other specs honor talents, you will not find a single defensive as strong as Burrow aside from Blessing of Spellwarding, but again that is a replacement for physical immunity they get in the class tree, so it is not always needed. Burrow being in our honor talents is like Ice block being in honor talents, its a bit ridiculous.
You keep spouting off about toxic waste ideas or whatever while claiming PvPers are stupid while completely missing the point of the post. Though I do agree that I would not mind defensive options coming in the form of sustain like AG was, but you keep talking about âre adding AGâ as if they will actually listen to that, theyâve been trying to kill it for years and it was obviously something they view as too easy and too good for Ele/Enh. Maybe come up with a less useless suggestion if you are going to criticize mine I would not mind hearing something useful.
Gave you multiple ones across multiple threads. 2nd stack of Astral (something that has been asked for a good long while), revamped version of Shamanistic Rage providing a small yet meaningful amount of DR and leech instead of mana regen for sustain, talent for HST that makes every single tick heal the Shaman as well so there is direct benefit to the caster while providing some off healing, ES providing a small amount of DR like a mini version of restoâs talent. My suggestions are considering all 3 specs and how they function in PvP and PvE instead of your suggestion of âLets give Enhance a defensive that primarily more beneficial in PvP vs PvE and let Resto and Ele kick rocksâ all the while not considering that PvE Enhance players do not touch SWG or the follow up talents and would necessitate a 3 point tax in order for them to grab it in a class tree already stressed for points.
That was only 1 suggestion, and it was on top of other suggestions Iâve already made. Stormweaver going in the class tree does not mean Ele and Resto would not also get something too in a different spot. And yes, it does take into account Enhance PvE players do not touch SWG because neither do PvP enhance shamans, ideally they would rework the lightning lasso side if this were to happen though. But again, for some reason you need to be told twice, I already just said it was a bad idea and it could just go into the spec tree instead in place of Improved Maelstrom Weapon, and that can just get baked in baseline if this were to happen.
The only idea Iâve seen from you that is semi decent is Healing Stream always healing the Shaman, but again you are not taking into account that Healing Stream is easily killable in PvP, it dies in a global, and it also heals for a lot less than AG. They could make this work though by possibly buffing Healing Streams hp in PvP with this change. 2nd Stack of Astral, again, does not help solve the issue with our honor talents.
If Burrow is not what a PvE shaman would want, then it is possible for them to add Stormweaver to the spec tree for enh in place of Improved Maelstrom weapon and then give Astral Shift 2 charges, that would fix the issue with honor talents for Enh at least (ele doesnât need that issue to be fixed nearly as bad since they are already tankier than enh in pvp) while also seemingly making PvE players happy?
Ideally though we get a defensive prune in midnight because this is just getting insane. What Iâm asking for would only be for this expac and I hope they actually do prune defensives across all classes, specifically some actives and most non class specific passives from class trees (ie 6% magic damage reduction etc) and hero talent trees.
No whats cringe is you acting like you were busting someone for posting on a second account when it should have been extremely obvious it was me, literally never hid it, achievement points are the exact same, I talk the same way, use your brain. Maybe you dont realize that you are unable to post in the same thread if your response was the last one. How do you think Iâve kept the Primordial Wave thread going in the PTR section? I bumped it repeatedly because again, there are very few shamans on these forums and the more popular classes have their threads going all the time. In order to keep our threads at the top for the devs to see, that is what I do. I donât trust them to actually dig through the ptr section so I keep it visible. I do that here sometimes too, but mostly on the ptr section.
The issue I have with that is that node where Improved Maelstrom Weapon is always taken because it is the only path to Raging Maelstrom and Overwhelming Maelstrom, so all Shamans would always have to take Stormwater. People who would generally prefer Healing Surge or Chain Heal to interact with MSW would be unable to do that. A strength of Enhance able to spend MSW on Healing Surge is that of spending MSW that while you werenât able to spend it on a damaging spell, the MSW used is still contributing towards any talents based on MSW consumption (progress towards Tempest, Frost Witch, Unlimited Power, Hailstorm, etc.), and Stormwater would remove that. The other benefit is that in a spooky situation where you need to throw multiple Healing Surges on yourself, Stormweaver would require more GCDs. So, there could be situations where you might not want to use Stormweaver. So the main thing would be finding an appropriate node in the Enhance tree where you could place it so players can choose to take it or not instead of being forced always to take it. The issue is there isnât a spot for it since Enhanceâs tree is very clogged.
That is wildly not the case for PvE, as Enhance has better survivability than Elemental mainly because of how MSW interacts with Healing Surge (higher throughput, instant cast, MSW spent counts towards other talents, mobility) vs Ele needing to hard cast Healing Surge at weaker throughput (even with the upcoming buffs for Farseer) which is far more disruptive rotationally than using MSW on Healing Surge for Enhance. The only thing Ele has over Enhance is the higher uptime of Primordial Bond, but when youâre talking about something damage intake during something like Nexus Princess intermission, a 5% dr is piss in the wind over being able to off-heal effectively (especially youâre likely not going to have an Ele out in some cases depending on CDR). Farseer gives Ele a 15 CD reduction on Natureâs Guardian and 10% more healing on it, which still lackluster, or a 25% healing buff on ES in addition to 3 extra charges, which is again pretty negligible (and purgeable).
That is something I didnât consider, and itâs a valid point. But Itâs funny you say that is what you considered as semi-decent when Iâve also suggested this multiple times in this thread and others:
The values would have to be looked at OFC but it fits the same role as AG without the group healing aspect, group healing power being the thing they wished to reign in. Because the healing done is always on you, having a lower conversion rate than AG would work out. The DR component would also be a good addition since, in PvP, if an opponent manages to CC or diminishes your ability to pump out damage, you still have the DR providing some benefit which is similar to moments in PvE where mechanics or movement disrupt your throughput. Itâs something that all 3 specs would be able to benefit from and correct me if Iâm wrong, but having something like that would potentially allow players to opt for other PvP talents instead of needing only to take defensive talent options due to the lack of meaningful defensive options in the class/spec trees, no? I would personally do something like this over 2nd charge of Astral since it fills the role that AG had for use defensively.
Sure but self-bumping your thread is infinitely more cringe no mater how you frame it.
Yeah I had thought about that, wasnât sure what kind of effects itâd have on pvp. Iâm not sure how they could work Stormweaver in to PvE as a choice somewhere but it would be nice to have I think as an option in PvE as well. Its honestly just really fun and I think gives the option of improving off heals in certain scenarios that would be an interesting choice to make. But yeah having it as a permanently taken node would not work.
Its mostly the case for PvP due to kiting, enh isnât super mobile so it can be kited relatively easily but also Ele has a shield giving it more DR against physical dps which are very relevant right now. Plus its ranged, playing ele vs fury war and enh vs fury war are two different games its disgusting. I can see enh having more survivability than ele in pve though for sure.
Not a bad idea necessarily. Leech is pretty useless in pvp though due to downtime, canât always make use of it and it heals for so little in PvP as well, but if they mess with values maybe it would work out. In terms of the DR aspect, kind of just feels like Astral shift to me no? Like lets say the leech portion isnât actually good in pvp, you have the DR portion, so then what does it actually do differently from astral shift? Leech is just difficult to get value out of since there is a lot of downtime in pvp, you arenât always pumping, and then you have other problems like people popping their own DRs during your burst meaning you do less damage and leech then does less healing which matters a lot depending on the values here. It could work, but Iâd be very skeptical of it. Theres a reason nobody touches leech enchants in pvp even classes that donât need the stam or speed enchants.
Okay but I donât really care nor did I ask, I am here purely for the devs to see our concerns, that is all I care about. If that means doing something cringe from your PoV to ensure our threads donât repeatedly die out and get drowned out by more popular classes especially in the ptr forums then that is fine with me.
This is actually one of enh greatest weakness but ok
This is actually a fallacy, I used think this too.
Stormweaver does require you to cast a damage spell before healing, but the extra gcd is more of a one-time investment per âcycleâ rather than a continuous penalty. In practice, the additional gcd is only incurred at the first lightning bolt. Once youâre casting maelstrom as part of your rotation, using one to trigger Stormweaver doesnât feel like an extra stepâitâs naturally integrated into your dmg. The extra GCD you incur is effectively âfreeâ if youâre already committed to casting damage spells (aka doing ur rotation). So, thereâs no percieved extra gcd because the stormweaver doesnt âcostâ a gcd - it reallocates it into ur dps rotation. The frequency of heals is the same over extended periods of time all while essentially banking your maelstrom.
Iâd love to see stormweaver more available purely bc i think itâs great and makes the class feel more complete and smooth. I think its great in pvp and would be awesome in solo content (delves and world) but it just gets too complicated in m+ and raid. Itâll be OP and ultimately too much power in one spec or it wonât really matter bc healing is already well covered.
And so I dont think it will ever happen.
Exactly. Enhance has always needed help defensively. We took a right step with bulwark and got to a decent place with the rest of our toolkit but took a step back with the loss of AG.
Im not gonna complain if we get another defensive whether it be burrow or shamanistic rage. I think these are suggested often bc theyâre pretty low hanging fruit (blizzâs fav).
Yeah this is basically it. I think itâs something theyâd actually go for and be willing to do. Doesnât require them adding anything new either. But id also be fine with Shamanistic rage if values were tuned appropriately. Either or as long as we gain another decent defensive.
If they added x2 of wall Iâd take that too, the only reason I really want burrow to move to the class tree is to allow enh to play Stormweaver which it currently canât take often if at all with how strong the other options are while also giving PvErs access to another defensive. However ill take any of these at this point