I believe one of the points of SOD is to make all specs and builds viable.
To this point I wanted to ask if we could get some scaling on mortal strike, for PVE purposes blood thirst will always be better then MS which isn’t what SOD is about.
With some scaling I won’t boxed in to having to go blood thirst for the 4th phase.
Also while I’m here some good slow two handed swords (=>3.7 attack speed) to match the might of menithil would be appreciated. Maces just aren’t as good as swords or axes.
Thanks!d
While I don’t disagree about MS scaling, I don’t see it making Arms viable vs Fury at 60.
Fury gets BT, Flurry, Deep Wounds and Impale. Arms MS get 5% more crit but can’t get Flurry due to it being so low on the tree.
30% attack speed is a tough handicap to overcome. Especially if rage normalization becomes a thing and more white attacks are the only way you can generate more rage per second
rage normalization is about making it so weapon speed and crits influence rage, but it otherwise doesnt change as you can attack power and larger white hits, so dual wielding doesnt have to be better rage per se (usually is balanced to be so though) but also we are likely not getting normalized rage
arms was meme spec not much better than ret in vanilla, it is a spec they can buff a lot. Give it the boomkin/spriest treatment right?
I would assume the opposite based on Aggrend’s twitter post asking Warrior’s what they would want in exchange for some form of rage normalization. That is a maybe, maybe not scenario, though. We don’t know for sure.
Regardless I guess they could make Arms viable at end-game but it feels like more than a buff to MS would be needed. Maybe an arms specific rune or something similar to juice the spec
I don’t think they can pull off rage normalization that won’t get them panned by everyone who actually plays warrior or cares about the enjoyability of the class. They’d probably get cheers from people who want warrior nerfs, but that’s about it. If they want to do rage normalization it needs to be a whole season thing and not start in phase 4 of an established season, and they definitely can’t do the “no testing” crap. They need time and feedback.
To make the arms tree competitive to fury at 60, they would need to make a rune that triggers off the use of mortal strike that provides a big enough damage boost to compete with flurry and death wish.
warrior is mid tier at best among the melee in optimal raid conditions and totally useless in all other scenarios (open world, questing, farming, pvp, etc).
Also, cata uses normalized rage. Its all about the math. We could get normalized rage and do more dmg if they get the math right.
this is wrong, blue post from Bornakk in 2010ish says literally the opposite… that normalizing rage the first attempt in TBC failed because they did the math wrong, and that the goal in cata was that it would still feel great but remove the problems with rage when you had 0 of it.
And so far in cata, rage feels great, at least in prepatch, sooooooooo
the top end doesnt actually change if it is balanced to do top end damage with normalized incoming range. Contrary to what ignorant aggrend says, rage gains does not equal infinite damage. You have CDs + gcds that greatly reduce the value of rage past a certain point. Especially beyond vanilla, but in vanilla infinite rage will see the largest boost in execute phase because you can dump (which is already where warrior does most of its damage so it would be amazing to move some of your damage to 100-20% phase) and for fury because heroic strike spam removed -19 hit penalty in a game made for auto attacks… but we are far beyond that now with SoD runes so even infinite rage fury still does terrible damage until execute phase.
Remember, rogue and melee hunter have been doubling warrior dps up until 20% where warrior does 4x its normal damage to still do less overall dmg than those 2 classes. Its not like warrior is in some great spot and change can only be negative. And those classes woop your booty with consistent energy or infinite mana as a resource.
I dont think normalized rage is necessarily the answer to classic but normalized rage done right feels way better than vanilla rage. But the SoD team has proven to not have a calculator along with having a hate bo-ner for warrior so you can assume warrior will get shafted no matter what.
Right, but Aggrend’s recent post was specifically addressing the issue of Warrior scaling in Vanilla. The intent is not to keep Warriors DPS as is. Their intent is to reduce the end-game rage generation → DPS scaling that put Warriors 30-40% above the closest class in Vanilla. AKA nerf Warrior top end DPS.
its hard to reference anything he says because he is completely clueless
every rune they’ve given warrior has been built around helping you scale harder in raid while doing as little as possible for you outside of raid (lol).
Take wrecking crew rune VS shadow word: death for example. Looking at some top end logs they contribute about the same dps in a raid environment but outside of raid wrecking crew isnt even noticeable whereas SW:D instantly obliterates half your HP at range.
If he actually had an iota of a clue he’d have been giving shadow priests raid scaling passive dmg runes instead of burst and utility, and giving warriors burst and utility instead of raid scaling passive runes.
This is also why i noted at the end there that you can expect whatever change they make to be bad for warriors because even now, in optimal world buffs perfect comp raids warrior is still losing to rogues, enhance, and melee hunters and prior to execute phase is doing around half the damage of other classes, even with world buffs, “muh scaling” and optimal conditions.
what? hunters have infinite mana all the time. Aspect of the viper is busted and only -10% dmg. Hunters effectively don’t have mana anymore. It’s a pool of viper juice that runs out very slowly for melee and quicker for ranged. With the paly martyrdom buff melee hunter never even needs to use it either. Raptor strike costs 85 mana and flanking strike costs 21 lol. Your infinite mana is next to useless for most hunters
This is just totally incorrect as well. World buffs are insane for warriors. 10% crit is not the same when applied to rogues or hunters. Because they don’t get additional benefit from crits. They just get 10% crit, warriors get more uptime on furry, all the extra bonus rage from white crits, plus they have additional crit damage that puts them over 200% crit damage for abilities. It’s not even close in comparison
The only class that has the same sort of crit mega scaling currently is paladins. But their dps is hard capped with the damage of exorcism as you can only do 1 cast per GCD + auto attack dmg with the occasional WF proc from autos. For this reason WF is not nearly as lucrative for paladins because you can’t proc windfury off a spell cast. Only a melee “attack” ability will proc windfury. So every GCD the warrior has a chance to get an extra attack from anything. Hamstring, regular auto attacks, heroic strikes, anything that counts as a main hand attack will have a chance at a bonus attack that also can crit and generate rage.
Also let’s talk about warchiefs blessing. 15% attack speed. Same for every melee class right? Wrong. 15% attack speed is just more white attacks for rogue/ melee hunter (minus the MINIMAL bonus energy for offhand attacks on rogue). For Warriors. thats 15% more rage in addition to the dps gained from the attack speed because attacking = rage so 15% more attacking = 15% more rage.
Either you have never played a warrior in classic or you are trolling trying to gas light people into thinking warrior is not busted.
It’s not 20%-0% that warriors have the advantage. It’s the whole fight. The one exception being the atal’ai defenders fight because of losing downtime to swapping targets. Where rogues can just shadowstepp at 30 yard range and keep on pumping.
So more let me correct your statement: Warriors are already dominating every encounter WITHOUT the additional benefits compared to other classes from lvl 60 world buffs. In every situation warriors should out dmg rogues/hunters now and most definitely come level 60. “Muh scaling”. there fixed it.
and they still lose to the rogues, hunters, and enhance under these conditions, how useless are they outside of raid? youre making my argument for me
it is, even in the best scenario its a mid pack melee class and outside of raids its obsolete
im looking at the highest parsing warrior that literally breaks and cheeses the game so much that warcraft logs makes rules around him and even tho he gaps everyone at the end of a tank and spank fight, hes losing to his rogue half way through.
Its absolutely execute that does it. My average as Warrior in sunken temple is a 97 and we are NOT anywhere near the sweat that parsing guilds put in. While some fights are now starting to die a bit too fast at the end, it is still common to see my dps double or even quadruple in execute phase.
Ive looked at warcraft logs each week. When fights were longer warrior was bottom tier melee dps. Now that ppl are getting some bosses to like, 30 seconds, and warriors can have everything rolling the entire fight, theyre basically tied with the other melee on overall. This includes Morphas and Hazas cheese. This is far from “dominating.”
Then you sim warrior and realize it loses half its dmg the moment it steps out of a raid and you can see why a shaman is worth 3x warriors out in the world. Sham can also heal and has way more EHP as well.
This all exists because all they gave warrior was SCALING PVE RAID RUNES or useless runes. Imagine playing a class that is obsolete in world questing, farming, pvp, etc just to tie other melee. Enhance, hunter, and rogue are all infinitely more useful in every other aspect of the game and they either tie or beat warrior in the only place warrior exists. It was never fixed in SoD.
In vanilla, when fury was able to use a 30 minute cooldown + raid buffs and infinite heroic strikes to remove -19% hit penalty and glancing blows to get a 20-30% lead, the silver lining for game balance was it was the worst spec/class combo in pvp and pretty useless overall outside of raid. They needed to give warrior the SW:D type abilities in SoD because this wont scale as hard in raid. Instead they gave it stuff like wrecking crew that is good in raid but not noticeable outside of raid. They balanced the game backwards.
Until they give it tools to not be a grey lvl NPC out in the world, it has to be good in raid, otherwise its a dead class. Hybrids, high utility, and meta PVP classes can’t also be the best in raid, otherwise the class has no place. At least when a Spriest is behind in raid dps its still a god at every other aspect of the game.
At 60 for Arms to be Viable VS fury there needs to be some Buff to the Arms tree or to two handed weapons for warriors.
weather that a buff to increase Weapon speed, a new ability, Something that Procs off MS. im not sure but Currently theres a 5% attack speed, a 10 - 35 % damage difference, and the fact that Blood thirst scales with AP (the rune that gives 2h weps 20% attack speed but gives DW 10% damage and Deathwish)
Can you link your source please? We must be in parallel universes because all the replays I can see show rogue just getting smoked by warriors from start to end. Also pretty much all the logs of high parsing warriors are fairly balanced dps wise throughout the fight. There might be a very small bump in dmg at execute phase but that is more to do with overlapping buffs not execute. It’s the CD placement/overlapping that gives warriors that huge spike at the end of the fight. Execute actually is not very good if you really look at it, it doesn’t scale with AP at all. So the farther we get into the super juiced warrior on jacked up SoD items. The less attractive execute will become.
To make arms work they just need a few adjustments. Taste for blood could have OP stance restriction removed. Buff frenzied assault to shamans two hand mastery. Starting with those 2 adjustments they would be totally viable end game