More thoughts about M+

Community WoW Community Council
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Hey. I will go straight to the matter.

Is it unfair that players may want to play a specific specialization but find themselves excluded from Mythic+ groups due to community biases? Additionally, some specs can handle +15 keys while others struggle even at +20. The disparities seem significant, and the system can be perplexing. :star2:

The issue of spec discrimination in Mythic+ dungeons is a topic that has sparked discussions within the World of Warcraft community. Let’s delve into it a bit further.

In Season 1, there was a prevailing belief that the only viable mage spec for +20 or higher keys was Fire. [However, this perspective overlooks the potential of other mage specs, such as Frost and Arcane]. Here are some points to consider (giving an example on mage specs to make my point):

  1. Fire Mage Dominance: Fire mages were often considered the go-to choice for high-level Mythic+ keys due to their burst damage potential. However, this reliance on Fire was based on community perception rather than a comprehensive evaluation of each spec’s performance.
  2. Frost Mage Strengths: Frost mages bring consistent damage output, crowd control (CC), and slows. Their single-target (ST) damage is respectable, especially when utilizing cooldowns efficiently. Frost mages can maintain Icy Veins for each pack and use Deathborne strategically, making them competitive in skilled hands.
  3. Arcane Mage Niche: Arcane mages serve a similar niche to Fire in terms of ST burst damage. Their trash pack damage benefits from abilities like Arcane Orb, Arcane Explosion, and Touch of the Magi. Despite this, Arcane is often overshadowed by Fire in the +20 scene.
  4. Community Perception: The bias toward Fire mages persists, even though Frost and Arcane specs can perform well when played skillfully. Community perception influences group invites, leading to gatekeeping based on spec choice.
  5. Discrepancies in Key Levels: Some specs struggle to handle higher key levels. While some can comfortably tackle +15 keys, others face challenges even at +20. These disparities can frustrate players who want to explore different specs.

In summary, the Mythic+ system could benefit from a more open-minded approach, allowing players to choose their preferred specialization without feeling excluded. [Recognizing the strengths of Frost and Arcane mages, as well as addressing the disparities in key levels, would create a more inclusive environment for all players]. :star2:

For more information on optimal DPS specs in Season 4 of Mythic+, you can refer to this2. Keep in mind that community perceptions and biases can impact gameplay experiences, but advocating for fair representation is essential for a healthier gaming environment. :star2:

Vault rewards.
Why doesn’t the vault reward from raiding scale up like it does for completing a +10, considering that doing a +10 is already relatively easy?

Leavers-Failing
I believe implementing either a penalty system for leavers or a group voting mechanism to determine the fate of a key is necessary. While I acknowledge the complexity of this issue, the overall environment, especially in mid to low tiers, remains somewhat toxic.

Wasted items
It seems counterintuitive that when you receive a trinket at a higher item level in subsequent runs, you’re still unable to trade it—even if you already have the same item. The current system feels frustrating in such situations. :star2: I am mainly talking about the same item, let’s say on heroic level but on a different step. You have it equipped on 2/6 and you cannot trade it as you got it again but on 3/6.

Thank you very much for ready and I am looking forward to discuss this with all of you!

1 Like
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It’s easy for people like us, but actually, a solid chunk of the player base (and certainly new players!) would struggle to complete those. Also, this season is a weird measure of difficulty considering all gear is essentially deterministic. This might be good to revisit in TWW.

Toxicity exists at lower levels because people want a smooth experience, and group makers have the perception that if they take the wrong person they will be punished. This isn’t super irrational, people are punished quite a bit for not timing & having leavers. It’s lead to people being quite defensive about their keys/runs. We could pile on more punishments for leavers, toxicity, etc… but the problem could also be solved by making failed runs less punishing. People have suggested any of the following:

  • Making Keystones not degrade, or have some sort of durability where they may degrade, or degrade very rarely - or something like this.
  • Making timing a keystone merely a cosmetic achievement rather than correlate to any gear or item upgrades.
  • Just making the dungeons easier at lower levels, so new players and whatnot fail less at lower levels - and then the need for group pruning will only exist at higher levels (which It kinda’ always will).
  • Also a general sentiment that players should not replicate the level of severity they see content creators do in their low-level runs. While, yes, this could be more efficient I’d argue that taking the player over the class in low-level runs is far more efficient.

Also mostly all of these problems are fixed with networking, making friends, and avoiding PUG’ing altogether. Easier said than done, etc etc… but it’s an option.

There are no rewards for doing a key higher than a +10. Unless you’re pushing for the top percentile title, or merely a vanity number that will be erased come the next expansion. I think Blizzard intends for all players/specs to complete +0–>+10 comfortably but with some difficulty. Beyond +10, and certainly into +20, I don’t think Blizzard necessarily wants to monitor and ensure all specs can do the highest level of content. Doing this would also just shift the goalpost, because then people will wonder why Warriors can’t have immunities for their +27s.

I’m also extremely biased because I think most classes have far too much bloat and complexity and I fear that making all classes viable for higher-level content might make the same mistakes that happened in the E-Sports era of Cataclysm. An elaboration for another day.

Two things might help on this specific topic though:

  • Make the top percentile achievement based upon the leaderboards for a specific specialization of a class rather than all players. Because a 3500 rating means something different on a Hunter versus an Augmentation Evoker.
  • Keep adding “non-calculable” benefits for bringing a specific class. While not necessarily the most “rewarding” in terms of time… a hunter may be able to feign death a really intense mechanic (like Nokkud’s last boss!), or may easily misdirect-snap ads to the tank on Academy, or disengage to break roots easily like on Tendril in Amirdasil! More of these kinds of benefits may make less-pumpy classes still pretty efficient because it hedges the bet on no mistakes happening.

Last I’ll just say that the data on how many M+ runs have been happening in Dragonflight is really good. Dragonflight has the most popular Mythic + seasons out of any expansion according to RaiderIO data on completions historically. Because of this, I think a lot of stuff is working, even if not perfect. While changes are certainly welcome I think they should be done with a fine tooth comb into TWW to keep the system popular.

Also with Delves coming out, I think people will care far less about their M+ rewards, so maybe Delves will change the dynamic such that people are more chill idk.

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Yes and no. It happens that I am part/leader of a community/guild of 400 accounts. Most of us are family guys in the late 30s or early 40s. I am 5th or 6th on M+ rating in the guild by completing 12s atm. As you understand most of our guys are indeed chill and you can run some nice 9s-10s which is super nice. But when I need to run some 10s outside of the community for any reason (see classic releases, mop remix and other events that drag everyone over there), I need to have some 11s or 12s in my score so I can get invited into pugs. I also want to emphasize that most of the higher level keys that I do with pugs are way smoother that the 10s I do with the guild. Usually those runs fail within the first 3-4 pulls anyway and people just leave skipping any kind of toxicity.

There is quite a gap between 10s and the 1%. Especially for this tier by the looks of it.
I just don’t want to be gated that much by my spec, that’s all.

Amen to that.
Also I still don’t understand why we don’t have separate tier sets for raiding and for M+. That would definitely give meaning to raiding cause you will only be able to get that tier from there and you will also not be bound to M+ to gear up for raiding at that level that you are now.

Yes and no.
I do probably double the amount of M+ that I did in SL.
This is not because M+ is just better (it is). It is also because the gearing process happens way more in M+ and way less in raids that in SL.

Nice reply though and I understand all your points. I still stand by what I said and I believe there is a lot of room for improvements. The new modes in TWW may bring some sense of progress in the game cause all is focused in M+ atm.

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There’s gonna be a bit off crossfire, but yea I think it would make sense for heroic raid last 2 bosses to drop mythic loot and be harder, thus also resulting in a higher great vault cache coming from heroic raids.

The meta has felt a bit stagnant this expansion, whenever it is too stagnant it start solidifying and we see huge discrepancies, first because of the advantages but then as most people switch to it which snowballs the effect of the meta a lot more.

As far as grouping for M+ pugging always has felt pretty bad for dps, which I think is always gonna happen because of the ratio of healers and tank needed. Having extra rewards for tank and healers like satchels while requiring less M+ be done for gear overall could help, as would be making healers and tanks more fun (for tanks I’d like some type of vengeance back).

For example if my guild has 25 raiders and 2 of them are tanks we’d need both tanks to run around 20M+ to cover everyone just from our guild and this is just for weekly not for when there’s the 2 first weeks gear rush. I think the M+ grind and great vault should be looked at. Sure you could have dps switch to tank but a lot of people would prefer to stick to their role.

As for keys dropping level I’m a bit ambivalent toward that, m+ is so rewarding that to some point there needs to be a downside. Does it need to be keys dropping? Maybe not but then I’d probably want to make it so keys don’t drop loot if depleted. Giving players that choice could probably work, having some way to empower keys to drop loot even if they fail but if they fail they lower.

As for leavers I don’t like the idea of punishment for leaving a key at the end you don’t get anything, good or bad, for leaving and I think that’s fair.

I personally feel feign death effects like shadowmeld hold too much power currently. I think it’s fine to want utility to matter but removing boss mechanics for me makes boss fights more boring as you’re not only cancelling the effect on you but on how the boss normally would act. They fixed this in WoD when it was abused in raids to drop boss mechanics and I think it’s time they do the same for bosses in dungeons.

Many of those problems will keep happening in m+, having more type of content like delves that are role agnostic I think can help a lot as would be to incentives people to raid more (as raids don’t require as much tanks) or even making more hardmode dungeons that can replace standard M+ progression (and if you do please make the last boss of those dungeons or some checkpoint boss drop loot so people aren’t incentived to leave early).

I think bringing back some type of proving ground achievements to help making better groups instead of only using M+ score would make sense. The point of that score was originally made for people pushing at the top of the top, I don’t think it really ever made sense for people not pushing.