Yes, but that isn’t a mark of being bad at geopolitical strategy per the factors in my post. Sometimes losing wars and battles aren’t predictable. Or the loss of major naval forces in Legion. And that there was no one else willing to help them all this time that didn’t involve getting screwed some.
I don’t want to go derail things, but looking back at the Legion cinematic of Varian monologuing, the progression of the story really does soil that.
You know how Marvel movies, you can go back and find some extra depth. For instance, that one Senator trying to get the Iron Man tech and it turns out he was a Hydra member? With modern Warcraft, you look back and see, “Oh, these characters had no idea what they were talking about.”
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The devs are using Charles Dicken’s serial narrative tools. He wrote Great Expectations (I think) serially, and would listen to people talk about the latest installment to help him decide which direction to take on the next one.
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Being in a relatively somewhat remote location isolated from your allies on a continent thoroughly dominated by your enemies is an extremely predictable outcome of their joining the Horde.
The Horde barely helped them in Quel’thalas anyway. Regaining control of Eversong and the Ghostlands were things that the Horde required them to do before they could get membership anyway. By the time they join the Horde they don’t actually need them anymore.
It’s a hilarious mess.
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Not really when previously the Forsaken had a massive hold on the north and there wasn’t another option to yield better results.
Yes they did. They were only able to continue holding those lands per Shadow of the Sun. By Wrath if they leave, they lose all that ground.
Sure there was. Their historical allies in the Alliance were an option. There were even Elves in the streets loudly protesting the move for Quel’thalas to distance itself from the Alliance. But the Magisters had an interest in keeping the Alliance away, due both to the fact that many of them were still loyal to Kael and the fact that the Alliance disapproved of their whole “do the same thing the Orcs did prior to the First War with demon magic” thing.
And so they quashed that dissent. With mind control even. Then they beheaded an Alliance ambassador for “spying” to ensure that bridge was well and truly burnt.
The Blood Elves alliance with the Horde was literally the product of the machinations of servants of the Burning Legion and it’s a big 'ol LOL that nowadays we have “Oh, the Blood Elves and the Horde have super strong familial bonds of friendship” nonsense
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It isn’t necessarily a contradiction though mind you, as Quel’thalas had been established as being sufficiently dumb, arrogant, and racist since WC2 that it is very logical and believable that they would fall for the con hook line and sinker.
Remember when Kael and his loyalists took over the Sunwell and tried to summon Kil’jaeden, and then the Alliance came and liberated the Sunwell, defeated Kil’jaeden and as a bonus even reignited the Sunwell using the shards of the Naaru that the Blood Elves had tortured into darkness, and then two expansions later Lor’themar would go on a rant about how mean the Alliance is and how the Horde only exists because of Alliance meanness?
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There wasn’t. You are showing your ignorance. The Alliance, as noted, first tried suiciding then executing the Blood Elves joining. Putting that aside, not even looking at that, the Alliance refused the Blood Elves as allies because they worked with Naga.
He was spying.
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Hmm, almost like it benefitted them just as much to do that.
Which, to be clear, is some long con by the Naaru to get them using the Light more.
Except by BC, it was established that the Belves in Quel’thalas were seperate from Kael’s group. Stuff that happened with Kael’s group isn’t directly applicable.
Even if “taking notes about the functions of the Arcane Sanctums that the Blood Elves themselves were giving him a tour of anyway” constitutes spying, the correct response is to expel the ambassador, not to behead them.
Executing an ambassador is practically an act of war, something that the Magisters probably knew.
You can apply this to anything. We can’t REALLY say that the Blood Elves defeating Dar’khan was a good thing or not because the Blood Elves benefitted from that. We can’t REALLY say that Tirion defeating Arthas was good or not, because he benefited from it. We can’t REALLY say that the Horde’s defeat of Mannoroth and participation in the Battle of Mt. Hyjal is a meaningful act, because they also benefited from it.
etc
Saying “well, the Alliance may have literally saved Quel’thalas and sacrificed one of their deities to fix our mistakes and reignite our lost Sunwell and asked for nothing in return, but REALLY they were just being selfish by doing that because they didn’t want the Burning Legion to return, therefore it’s a wash” is an insanely dumb edgelord thing to argue though and as such it’s perfect for the Blood Elves lol
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It was in the eyes of the Alliance at that time according to the lore.
Those notes were being held by Night Elves. Who as a group were not only on that land without permission, had set up scrying camps to spy from the Ghostlands. The Blood Elf clearly felt such details were confidential to take, alongside mapping other key locations in the area. There’s no question that’s spying.
And? I think most things are driven by self interest. That doesn’t mean you can’t do good, but let’s not pretend the part that self-interest plays.
The Naaru specifically let itself get captured planning to reignite the Well to restore faith in the Light. That’s about as conspiratorial a motive you can get.
I mean, you are the one with the naïve idea that all these actions are driven by pure selflessness. Do you think the United States is mainly in the Middle East for humanitarian reasons too?
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Maybe? Ain has some good points generally, but at the very least he has been clear he truly does thoroughly enjoy playing in moral absolutes. Can’t conceive of a reason for someone to play a Horde than to be contrarian to the Alliance. And is probably the single most MHP on these subs. With his very clear agenda about reclaiming the Human Holy Land and wiping away that ugly “mistake” and “shame” from Human Pride. By rebuilding all 7 Human Kingdoms. Because nothing sells “a brighter future” for Humanity, than dogmatically trying to reclaim past. Since I guess their best is behind them?
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If you’re this cynical then I’m not sure that the Alliance is for you.
I genuinely don’t care whether or not the Alliance is good or evil per se. I do however call it like I see it.
- I’ve played Alliance quite a while. It isn’t anywhere near your place to tell me what my faction is. Like wow, talk about a rude individual.
- Cynicism is sometimes warranted (assuming we’re just describing it as believing people are self-interested). I’d just call it being realistic. Again, the United States intervenes abroad to protect their interests. Nations very frequently act in this manner. That’s a simple fact.
You were going on about how much you liked the Alliance being an unrealistically good and virtuous faction earlier.
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Someone at Blizzard apparently didn’t like my joke, so here’s the map of post-war territorial control that got deleted for posterity:
The number one thing I’ve noticed about Alliance players who enjoy that sort of moral power fantasy is that … they will always get a bit twitchy when its called on as a writing flaw. Because, it clearly is. One that has become increasingly detrimental to the story telling of this game whenever the Factions are involved. With Anduin Wrynn being both a symptom and exacerbation of that greater problem.
The artificial purity test the Alliance has been increasingly kept under since Cata has done nothing but render the Blue Faction little more than reactionary victims. Who’s reactions are even heavily repressed by both the needs of the game and their own absolute moral integrity. And consequently, its force the Red Faction to be the proactive ones. Despite being allowed less and less motives to actually “act” (let alone valid ones). Which is BfA in a nutshell for both sides. The Alliance being kneecapped by their own Moral Absolutism, while the Horde is forced to be the aggressors with not motivation.
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The Alliance has always been the reactive entity. It’s arguably the only major reactive entity on Azeroth at the moment. The basis for the faction is literally “everyone pool their resources together to deal with the evil armies and/or cosmic horrors that keep threatening our homelands” born out of a recognition that an attack on one member will inevitably become an attack on all if not dealt with. Its motivation is fundamentally a preservation/restoration of the status quo prior to the First War.
It’s also tricky to spin that into a bad thing given that the pre-First War status quo is generally considered to be the much, much better situation for almost everyone on the planet.
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Never to this extent they haven’t been. Hell, Arthas was shockingly proactive in how he reacted to things. So was Garithos and the 2nd War vets for that matter. Generally, the Alliance has gone from reactive and active … to reactive and largely passive. Because despite being the Faction allowed ALL the motives to act, they can’t be allowed to. While the Faction allowed few to no motives to act … are forced to instead.
What good is the Alliance having a thousand and one grievances, especially against the races of the Horde, if they can never be allowed to act upon them? Even with a conceptual push? Instead they just turn the other cheek constantly because Blizz has since Cata kept them restricted under a rather absurd moral litmus test (when Blizz REALLY started becoming non committal to the Alliance’s few acts of grey AND began their habit of burying that grey under mountains of justifications or whitewashing).
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Thank god the Alliance Morality got in the way in BfA… and everything was settle with humble Naval skirmishes… I mean Alliance does have space ships with laser nukes… while we the Horde just have Goblin Zeppelin that shoot bombs!
Sarcasm and joking aside, I think that writers tend to forget a lot of stuff that has happened in the past… and how unbalance even in a fantasy setting have gotten in WoW to trying to push forward any morality in a faction conflict. In a realistic setting Ogrimmar or Undercity would have gotten Nuke from the sky for the burning of Teldrassil. We would have stand no chance at that… (IMO)
Now in shadowlands we are told that… Anduin is some super weapon that can be use? EVEN Sylvanas get the feels when close to this man! lol
I was like: Wut? Yay, horde? 
Apologies for butting in to your rational discussion its just that the whole story is in such an odd place right now that when I was reading your discussion I suddenly was painfully reminded were the Horde is at this moment in the story.
Carry on, don’t mind me… 
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There is a case and point there yes. Granted, I also think a lot of people forget that it was the BEs that took down the Exodar AND captured and retrofitted Tempest Keep for their personal use (so its not quite that one-sided) … but the point is the point. Regardless, functionally, a lot of BfA’s “war story issues” can be traced back to (in part) Blizz’s expectation that the Horde be the aggressors (and villains) … while their characteristic neglect of the faction required they stupid and mcguffin them there. Its hard to build up the Red Faction as a reasonable threat for your role for them as villains, if you are adverse to building up the Faction in general… Which is why they only won the one battle they needed to be the baddies.
As for Anduin. I gave the kid the benefit of the doubt in BfA because it seemed reasonable enough that his inexperience and naivete were being portrayed as flaws. Even if he did have some valid points. Which caused tensions within the Alliance, especially apparent within that final Alliance cinematic. However in SLs, the kid has sadly picked up quite a few new “Sue” traits. Chief among those: “All characters, both antagonistic and protagonists, are obsessed with him”; "He’s even more of a “Chosen One” than he ever was before; and the fact that he’s very likely to be taken as a protégé (or mentee) of a prior fan favorite here. With either Uther or Arthas (or both) tying into his story arc in SLs in some major way.
Frankly, between him and Sylvanas it just feels like a battle between writers pets atm. With the narrative designers succumbing pretty heavily towards self insert sydrome.
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