Ok but the thing is they were there to capture sylvanas though, according to Anduin at least. It’s why Blizzard claims the very obvious victory as a defeat (likely done to build hype for Dazar’alor)
Blizzard has been moving away from Moral Greyness for years now, that much was obvious in WoD
The Alliance was there to take Lordearon. Arathi Highlands warfront took place with Sylvanas not even on the continent. Anduin and Genn may have wanted to bring Sylvanas in to answer for her “warcrimes” but there was always a chance that that would not happen. A huge assault on the Undercity was bound to end in Sylvanas’ death and massive loss of life on both sides. Genn knew as well as Sylvanas and Saurfang that the Undercity was lost the moment the flames hit Teldrassil. Human soldiers believed they were retaking their human birthright.
In Legion, Genn was the face of morally grey alliance. While Sylvanas put all forsaken forces at the disposal of the PC, save a small personal bodyguard to accompany her on a quest to ensure the survival of the forsaken (if we take the last work of Chris Metzen at face value), Genn disappeared with his entire fleet to hunt down Sylvanas, bent on revenge while the Burning Legion laid seige to Azeroth, because he was unaware of the details of events on the broken shore that were privy only to the Horde.
I don’t think what you want requires it. But I consider the flip side, where the Horde narrative is. If there’s not some fear for their existence on some level, so many of their conflicts seem baseless wrongdoing. Then you add in the Alliance players who claim any action, even extermination, is justified from the past (I don’t truck with that). But it is worth considering how to appeal to various player bases.
The road I’ve argued for a while has been the same. Which is that on a great level, there’s peace and cooperation. The Alliance and Horde have mainly broken the cycle of violence, which in part satisfies players tired of the war narrative. Then on a smaller scale there are rogues and what have you carrying on. Genn, Tyrande, whoever. That doesn’t accept the peace. And there can be counterparts in say, the Mag’har leader or whatever. So then the people that still want that war and ‘whatever it takes’ mindset get their helping too.
This is circular reasoning, first off. “It’s true because the lore supports it, and the lore supports it because it’s true.”
Second off, the members of the Cult of the Damned also came from the same population pool as the humans of Stormwind. Guess that means that the Alliance actually loves undead?
I shouldn’t have to explain this faulty logic.
The Scarlet Crusade is not the Alliance any more than Rend Blackhand’s Dark Horde was the Horde. The Alliance was enemies with the Scarlet Crusade, and the mere existence of an ambassador in the Cathedral of Light’s basement doesn’t indicate they’re the same faction, especially given that this ambassador was either ignorant of the Scarlet Crusade’s actions, or lied to the Alliance about them.
A) The Arathi Highlands are the territory of the Kingdom of Stromgarde and always were. The Forsaken were the invaders there.
B) The Alliance had just as much right to be in Hillsbrad as the Forsaken, because those Humans were from Hillsbrad. They had lived there before the Third War and they lived there after the Third War, and they weren’t bothering anyone. The Forsaken invaded and killed them with little to no provocation. Arguing that the mere Alliance presence in a place where the Alliance has always been somehow constitutes Alliance aggression against the Forsaken is patently absurd.
If you are going to try and argue about Forsaken-Human relations it would probably be beneficial if you knew where everyone’s pre-Third War borders were.
So? You can’t just say “this evidence is from that source, therefore it doesn’t count.” You’re acting as though Before The Storm retconned things when in fact, all it did was elaborate on an area of the lore (Human-Forsaken relations) that hadn’t been explored very much. You think that it contradicted prior established lore, but on closer inspection the prior established lore that you think it contradicted never actually existed, at least insofar as the Forsaken’s relations with the Alliance specifically were concerned.
It’s not a surprise that you’re so upset because you’re basically living IRL what Sylvanas did to the Forsaken in-game. You had an idea of the world that was a giant lie, and BtS shattered that illusion.
And instead of accepting that Sylvanas used the Forsaken like the abuser she is, you instead blame the writers for the fact that you believed her. I’m sorry but that’s a you problem. I played Horde in BC and never believed a word that came out of her mouth even then because she was so obviously two-faced, and it was obviously me who was intruding and killing innocents in places like Hillsbrad.
I was a dumb teenager at the time and still saw through it. I don’t know what everyone elses excuse is.
God, I wish this was true. The Alliance that you apparently believe existed from WoW onwards is much more in-tune with its history than the one we actually have.
The solution is moral absurdism
The Scarlet Crusade is not politically aligned with the Alliance but represents the most extreme members of a human devotion to fighting the undead.
Stromgarde joined with the Kingdom of Lordearon following the decline of their empire. After the Kingdom of Lordearon was overtaken by the scourge, Stromgarde was destroyed by Syndicate and Ogre forces (and trolls?) Stromgarde was never to my knowledge part of the Alliance of Stormwind prior to its fall, and the League of Arathor are essentially anachronists.
Hillsbrad never belonged to the Alliance of Stormwind. It was contested territory that once belonged to the Alliance of Lordearon. Those two Alliances are not the same political body. What they have in common is racial. Im not saying the living humans of Lordearon (who were refugees in the alliance of Stormwind and did not bring their ancestral lands with them) should have left Hillsbrad, I am saying that they are the humans who objectively rejected their undead countrymen, launched raiding parties into undead lands and forced the undead to seek out an alliance with the horde.
No. The Lore is all we are talking about, there is no alternative. People believe that the undead were hated and hunted by their living relatives, rejected by the alliance and forced to seek membership in the horde or risk extermination at the hands of the remaining Eastern Kingdoms, because that is the story. Thats not Sylvanas’ version of the story. Thats the 3rd party omniscient perspective. Circular reasoning is when you say the bible is true because the bible says its true. Not when you discuss christian theology and cite the cannon as reference. That’s the difference here.
That area hadn’t been explored much because it was case closed since vanilla. Reopening it without acknowledging the previous lore is essentially a retcon. Furthermore, parts of Before the Storm (including Sylvanas’ own inner monologue) were retconned before 8.3. That’s only 66% through the expansion BtS was supposed to introduce!
Thats a pretty bold assertion about me and would be some pretty impressive psychoanalysis if only it were correct. I actually like Sylvanas as evil. I like Cataclysm Sylvanas, defying Garrosh to blight Gilneas. I don’t want a good Sylvanas, and I don’t particularly hate Sylvanas as a villain for any reason but the fact that they have written themselves into a corner. I just love the warcraft tradition of pointing out that the good guys arent really good. The fact that they have made the Alliance not only goody-two-shoes, but also pitiful victims, making Tyrande suddenly seem unhinged and maniacal in comparison is what I really hate.
“Humans” are an extremely diverse group friend.
You have pretty much all of your lore wrong here. The Alliance was founded by Lordaeron, consisting of the human kingdoms of Lordaeron, Stormwind, Gilneas, Alterac, Dalaran, Kul’Tiras, and Stromgarde as well as the non-human kingdoms of Quel’thalas, Ironforge, Gnomeregan, and Aerie Peak.
After the Alliance was victorious in the Second War, Alterac was no longer a member, having been destroyed in the Second War due to its betrayal of the Alliance. Gilneas, Quel’thalas, and Stromgarde would all leave of their own accord prior to the events of Warcraft 3 for various reasons.
Warcraft 3 happened, and the Kingdoms of Lordaeron and Dalaran were destroyed. Power shifted south to the Kingdom of Stormwind, and those that survived the destruction of Lordaeron fled to either Stormwind or Theramore.
Stromgarde had been ravaged by Ogre and Syndicate forces due to the chaos of the Third War combined with the assassination of Thoras Trollbane by his son Galen. The remants of Stromgarde remained in Arathi as the League of Arathor, and rejoined the Alliance shortly before WoW started.
The Alliance is a continuous political entity spanning from its founding by Terenas Menethil and Anduin Lothar at the outset of the Second War all the way to now, and Stromgarde has been an independent member of it for most of its existence, barring the gap between the Second and Third Wars.
Hopefully this helps you.
As I just explained, this is incorrect and I strongly recommend you spend some time researching the history of the Alliance.
The Humans of Hillsbrad did no such thing. They had survived the Third War and had absolutely no interest in anything other than continuing to survive. It’s the Forsaken who invaded their lands, not the other way around.
You’re using your conclusion as evidence of your claim. That’s by definition circular reasoning.
I feel like this is a reflection of society where we are trying to become morally relevant and avoiding absolute truths like good and evil.
You kind of gloss over the fact that The Alliance of Lordaeron disintegrated and the Alliance of Stormwind is a separate organization. They have a separate name because it is not a continuous Alliance. The human Kingdoms split inspiring the racial ability “Every Man For Himself”. Stormwind is the spiritual successor of Lordearon but cannot claim to inherit anything but inspiration from The Alliance of Lordaeron.
Don’t get me wrong, I love the Alliance and most of my characters are Worgen and Dwarves. My love of the lore of the Eastern Kingdoms and the Medieval to Victorian European fantasy is why my horde characters are undead. But power didnt shift to Stormwind. It has been very slowly regenerating around Stormwind. We only just brought Kul’tiras back into the Alliance. Greymane threw a tantrum and left because he didnt get a big enough slice of Alterac, if Im not mistaken and he didn’t come back to the Alliance until Cataclysm and only because he had no choice and we were aided by the nightelves (I cant wait until queens Tess and Lorna take their rightful places on the throne when we finally retake Gilneas). This is about the same time the Wildhammers officially rejoined the Alliance, sending an ambassador to Ironforge. Thats 4 major chapters of the story before major members of the Alliance of Lordaeron joined the Alliance of Stormwind.
This is incorrect. The Alliance was amended after the fall of Lordaeron but it never fully disintegrated. Stormwind, Ironforge, Gnomeregan, and Lordaeron are all founding members that never left even once.
There is no political or organizational distinction between the “Alliance of Lordaeron” or a theoretical “Alliance of Stormwind.” They are the same entity and always have been. It got really, really freaking dire around Warcraft 3 and it genuinely looked at the time like the Alliance’s collapse was inevitable, but the Alliance held and regrouped.
“Alliance of Lordaeron” isn’t used to refer to a seperate organization, but rather to a specific period of Alliance history spanning from Warcraft 2 to WoW.
It’s like how you have the history of modern France split between different periods. There’s a Kingdom of France, a French First Republic, a First French Empire, a French Second Republic, a Second French Empire, a French Third Republic, a French Fourth Republic, and the current French Fifth Republic, but they’re all still France.
In the Battle for Lordearon scenario, Greymane says “Lordaeron will be ours” , before saying “we have her cornered.” When they approach Sylvanas in the Throne room, Anduin says to her, “Lordaeron is ours.” It is the battle for Lordaeron. The primary goal of the assault on the undercity is to retake Lordaeron. The secondary goal of the assault is to end the war quickly by capturing Sylvanas… a goal Anduin had to remind Genn of… because everyone was distracted by killing Sylvanas and taking Lordaeron. BfA quest writing, and supplementary fiction failed to reinforce this in many ways, or at least distracted from this.
They should have doubled down on the retaking of human lands narrative in the Arathi warfront.
I don’t dispute any of this, and will point out that they DID go in on a retaking of human lands narrative in the Arathi warfront. The Alliance Arathi Warfront theme is even literally the Lordaeron theme from Warcraft 3.
I’ll also add that at the Battle of Lordaeron, Genn says “we will raise our banners above Lordaeron once more!” and in the breadcrumb quest, Anduin says “the time has come to reclaim what is rightfully ours.”
Incidentally, this and what you’re describing isn’t the behavior of a politically and historically distinct Alliance that never had Lordaeron in it. This is the behavior of the historical Alliance, sometimes known as the Alliance of Lordaeron, reclaiming territory it had once but lost.
Then why are you saying that the Alliance of WoW wouldnt/didn’t do these things but it would be cool if they did?
This is a cultural continuation, like speaking common. Even wowpedia differentiates between The Grand Alliance and the historical Alliance of Lordaeron of which the only common members as of vanilla wow were Stormwind and Ironforge.
Sounds like the words of people who have nothing against undead. /s
I don’t object in principle to them doing nasty things to the Forsaken in response to the nasty things the Forsaken have done to them, but the lore as we have it doesn’t support that they would or have.
Wowpedia is incorrect. Even in its basic facts, as of Vanilla the Alliance still consisted of not just Stormwind and Ironforge, but also Dalaran, Gnomeregan, and Aerie Peak, as well as whatever remained of the Kingdom of Lordaeron. All of these members were members at the start of Warcraft 2 all the way through the Alliance of Lordaeron period of Alliance history.
Again, you’re conflating a descriptor for a particular period in Alliance history for a completely separate organization.
Dalaran split, floated off and was no longer a member. Gnomeregan was uninhabitable. The gnomes were refugees in Ironforge. The Wildhammers of Aerie Peak were friendly but the Wildhammer clan did not officially rejoin the Alliance until cataclysm.
This didn’t happen until Wrath of the Lich King.
So? Its political leadership remained intact and committed to the Alliance.
Aerie Peak is weird because it was a de-facto member of the Alliance that was still contributing troops to the Alliance, whereas it was the Wildhammer in the Twilight Highlands who were more fiercely independent, but I’ll give you this one. Doesn’t change the fact that it’s the same Alliance though.
It involves the same people but is a different alliance, presumably with different bylaws and agreements and treaties. Its like the League of Nations vs. The United Nations. A lot of the same people, but not the same organization. A spiritual successor, but not a continuous association.