yeah part of blizzards mistake was putting a character like Saurfang forward as some moral beacon of the Horde.
His crimes are worse than Garrosh’s, he had actively participated in 3 genocides even though he was aware after the first one how terrible it was. He also stabbed an alliance leader in the back so that throws away the whole Honorable trait.
Where as Garrosh hadn’t committed any genocides(not for lack of trying though) he also put honor above all else. He never wanted leadership but it was thrust upon him by Thrall and he had unrealistic standards to then live upto. Hell he even put Sylvanas in her place by calling her the lich king and forbidding her from using the plague.
Garrosh may have been a bastard but he was well aware of what he was. Saurfang on the other hand pretended to be honorable but in the end was a coward.
I thought he didn’t forbid the plague out of any moral sense of right and wrong, but specifically because he wanted to have forsaken forces killed off to whittle them out of the horde.
He also tried to have Vol’jin assassinated so that pretty much kills off any honorable vibe he was supposed to have, but the character wasn’t really pretending at that point.
Yep, Garrosh was effectively trying to use the forsaken as a meatshield against the alliance, with the idea they would delay and cause damage and the alliance would eventually wipe them out, to the point that most forsaken would perform mass suicide by bonfire a couple of years into the war do to alliance atrocities and garrosh’s own callousness.
Of course this is all relying on lore that was supposed to make the Forsaken sympathetic and the Alliance morally grey, which was tragically not the direction blizzard took the story, unless they’re saying the reason they got so vile is because of Sylvanas or something.
He seemed to genuinely be opposed to the Blight and thought his strategy was sound.
“Of course I see!” Garrosh answered. “The door is wedged open; now it must be kicked down. This is what your kind is good for.” Now the warchief looked directly at the master apothecary, his cool eyes fixated on the pale yellow light that filled the latter’s eye sockets. “You’re already corpses, nearly impossible to kill. You flood the chokepoint, you open the way for the rest of the Horde to come through, fresh and eager. Rushing over a bridge of broken bodies if we have to. This is how fortifications are breached. How wars are won.”
“If you’re suggesting using even an ounce of that filth that you’ve got hidden away, I will burn you and your sewer-city to the ground,” Garrosh grunted. He turned back toward the action.
Garrosh didn’t trust the Blight; the Wrathgate and Battle for the Undercity had exposed that weapon’s capacity for being too easily unleashed against the rest of the Horde, and he didn’t like the Forsaken having the capacity to repeat Putress’s actions.
He was already not one to easily trust others, and internally betrayed or not, to his mind the Sylvanas and the Forsaken had a wartime act of treason against the Horde on their record and he wasn’t about to let them have more opportunities to pull the same kind of stunt again.
Ok, so three things about this short. Garrosh did not want the Alliance to wipe out the Forsaken. Or rather he did not want them win. However, Garrosh being Garrosh, he squander the Forsaken in this supposed future and due to his dislike of the plague meant the Forsaken did not have their most powerful weapon to use against the Alliance. At best it proves how wholly incompetent Garrosh is when it comes to long term warfare, at worse, it shows his total disregard for the Forsaken, he just doesn’t care what happens to them one way or another.
Second, calling it “Alliance atrocities” is a inaccurate. As far as we know the Alliance was just going to war. We don’t know one way or the other what the Alliance would have done to any forsaken who would surrender. If anything, Varian’s assault on Capital City would be equivalent to Anduin’s.
Third, for people who think the whole “The Horde is nothing” is out of character for Sylvanas, the short story shows what she think of the Forsaken. Heck, if Sylvanas wasn’t going to the Maw, she would not have care what happened to the Forsaken, what makes anyone think she actually cares about the Horde?
My point was that Garrosh had standards and generally stuck to them. The few things he did that were deemed as horrible pale into comparisons of the crimes Saurfang was guilty of.
Saurfang came off as a missive hypocrite to me as he judged Garrosh and his actions as being overtly to violent and evil. Yet when he got the chance to go back to war he happily jumped at the chance to get his murder on aka his “good war”. Even when he came to the Realization that he had been an idiot instead of trying to make amends he tries to get himself killed so he doesn’t have to face any consequences. Even his fight against Sylvanas could still be seen as the cowards way out.
Actually you’re citing a vision that the Valkyr gave to Sylvanas in an attempt to persuade her onto their side. None of what you’re saying here is actually objectively true in any way.
The “Sylvanas is an abuser” argument continues to have growing merit going by how she apparently managed to gaslight an entire faction into quivering in fear of Alliance atrocities that never happened and never would.
This is literally the theme of Warcraft. There are no good guys. Everyone’s hands are dirty. Every time they get a chance, they remind us by showing us how the bad guy was driven to badness by the bad actions of a good guy, or just generally having the “good side” full of bad guys.
“A Good War” was meant to remind us of this while Saurfang was cured of the delusion that somehow this invasion would be somehow less “bad” than Shattrath. There is no good war and every character in this franchise has hands stained by it. If there is conflict in the cosmos, then it stands to reason that the cosmic forces are stained by the same blood.
Saurfang was quite the strategist in his own right. Admittedly, it seems like they abandoned the complex and nuanced story introduced to us in A Good War in favor of what they thought was a more black and white faction conflict and a mysterious old god story, but if we take A Good War at face value and give it as much weight as any of the literature that fed us the crap we ended up with, we have to admit that the threat of Alliance invasion of Horde lands was inevitable eventually. That when it did happen, Orgrimmar would be indefensible. That Sylvanas pretty much trusted Anduin to stand for peace, but that was it and Saurfang could not disagree.
This has always been weird because it was even the case in Northrend. We’re told that Garrosh was a brash, popular war hero for his actions. But all we really see are him botching things or rushing recklessly headlong into situations that don’t quite warrant it.
Do you really believe the story Edge of Night was meant to convey that uncertainty towards their actions? A story centered around Sylvanas/Forsaken and a snippet about what individuals that hated them would have done post-war?
It just feels so hard to believe the Alliance would go this route. Who have all seemingly hated and been revolted by everything the Forsaken are for years. Rulers who barely manage not to kill them on sight at times. Who have talked about taking away the only land they really possess. Where mass extermination has been on the table for the Alliance before. Who some races (like humans and night elves, seem to think they’re an abomination) That they would what, go easy on them? Put them in camps? That seems wildly out of line with the lore before someone like Anduin took control. Who even has had to put forth some effort to get anyone to see the undead as people, which has seemingly been an uphill, failing battle.
Literally none of the content of this paragraph is factually correct. It’s actually the direct opposite of what has been repeatedly demonstrated since WoW’s inception (and even in TFT)
Like I’m struggling to find words in the English language that can accurately convey how wrong you are.
Well we can go through the points since you don’t want to give evidence or make any actual points.
That’s ok, I’ll hold your hand through it.
Who have all seemingly hated and been revolved by everything the Forsaken are for years.
Most obvious show of what the people think is given in events such as the Death Knight introduction. As well as Before the Storm especially. Well it is given the majority are not really cool with this idea of meeting Forsaken. And then just the bulk of quests in say Gilneas, Hillsbrad, or dealing with the Forsaken at all as an Alliance player. One of Vereesa’s children Galadin puts it well, ‘how good can you be if you’re undead?’ Forsaken being popular or liked by humanity has really never been a demonstrated idea.
Rulers who barely managed to not kill them on sight at times.
This specific scene happens with Genn Greymane and Turalyon in Before the Storm. Both barely restrain themselves from violence upon seeing Benedictus, who was an old friend to them.
Sky-Admiral Rogers is well known for her detailed hatred, as well as plotting with Genn to pre-emptively given orders to attack them in a scouting mission.
Garithos in his first meeting questions why he should bother with them. Something like six of his advisors tell him not to work with the Forsaken? (Again, showing their unpopularity.) Calling them animals.
Varian who is unable to restrain himself upon taking in the sight of Undercity. Going on about the Horde’s evil nature at seeing how the Forsaken live. Upon going to find and attack Thrall and Sylvanas.
Tyrande has specifically disregarded peace for her hatred of Sylvanas and the undead. Though I acknowledge she hasn’t specifically had to hold back from attacking that I know.
Where mass extermination has been on the table for the Alliance before.
The Alliance voted whether to exterminate the Orcs or not. A matter Daelin Proudmoore tried to follow up on. You can read about this in some of the game manuals (I think) and Chronicles.
Some races (like humans and night elves, seem to think they’re an abomination).
Again, something that has come up various times in questing, Before the Storm, Death Knight introduction, Darkshore, so on.
The idea that the Alliance doesn’t hate undead outside Anduin and a small group is backwards. But at the very least your hyperbole as to ‘literally none of the content is factually correct’ is easily disproved.
Given that everyone had that reaction to DK’s including the Horde, that doesn’t support your assertion that disliking undead is merely an Alliance thing. Furthermore, it also didn’t last, with the Alliance accepting DK’s very easily based on Tirion’s word alone (the same reason the Horde accepted them)
And as for “the bulk of quests in Gilneas and Hillsbrad” I would point out that in the former, it’s all in reference to the Forsaken having invaded, and in Hillsbrad any quests you had in Vanilla barely dealt with the Forsaken at all, and in Cata Alliance can no longer quest there (and the Alliance presence is just a bunch of peasant mobs)
I’m not sure why you think citing Before the Storm helps you given that most humans offered attendance at the Gathering readily accepted it. They dealt with the Forsaken fine. They even returned to give the Forsaken victims of Sylvanas a proper burial.
If you’re going by BtS, the Alliance has literally treated the Forsaken better than Sylvanas has.
So do you have a habit of getting halfway through a chapter while you’re reading the book and then randomly skipping the rest of it?
Turalyon was shocked at Faol’s appearance, but on conversing with him he stopped his aggression and indeed, began to weep with joy at seeing his old mentor again. Genn ends the novel with “yeah I guess some Forsaken can be alright”
Sky-Admiral Rogers attacking them at Stormheim was a byproduct of the Forsaken being members of the Horde, as well as Genn’s vendetta against Sylvanas personally. Using the mere fact that the Alliance ever attacked them at all as evidence that the Alliance was chomping at the bit to exterminate them is complete nonsense.
Are you REALLY using “Garithos said mean things to them =(” as your evidence? And suggesting that this pre-empts the actual actions he took, which was allying with the Forsaken based entirely on Sylvanas’ promise that they were different from the Scourge?
Again, “characters were mad at the Forsaken and attacked them after being provoked by the Forsaken” cannot be extrapolated into “therefore it’s totally believable the Alliance was going to exterminate all of them if not for Anduin”
The Alliance specifically refused to exterminate the Orcs. It didn’t even really consider it. Those who wanted to such as Quel’thalas specifically LEFT the Alliance because the Alliance WOULDN’T exterminate the Orcs.
I now understand now how you can believe this considering your apparent inability to engage with a narrative sequence on a basic level.
The Tauren attacked the Dwarves in Mulgore, therefore I have no choice but to conclude that the Tauren have an irreconcilable hatred for Dwarf-kind, and the only thing stopping them from exterminating every last Dwarven man, woman, and child is Baine.