Speaking cosmically though- things are relative. So far only Life and Undeath seem to be minding their own business on a galactic scale.
Order and Light are certainly more constructive than Chaos and Shadow, but it’s more than a little implied the Light would very much prefer if everyone got in on it’s big group hug - whether they want to or not.
And as for Order - has anyone asked them to go around populating worlds with their robotic mini-mes? I’m just saying I wouldn’t be surprised if their end game was turning the universe into one giant, efficient machine world.
I like to see it that despite being immensely powerful beings within their respective cosmology - have their own ideologies & freewill of sorts.
Like for instance, you see Old Gods had quarrels with one another before the Titans came along & they then had to begrudgingly work together to push through - The Titans too didn’t all agree with one another / had discussions of sorts. Heck even the Naaru Z’rali, said most of her kind would consider her ‘tainted’ by the realm of Revendreth in the Shadowlands and thus she would choose not to return.
I like the idea of individuals whether they be Naaru, Void Lords, Void Gods, Old Gods or even Dreadlords turned to the light (Lothraxion for example) are capable of flawed choices and/or recognising those flaws, and having character development.
Personally, I like to see a faction within the ideal of X subject helping the playerbase in stories as it plays off that there’s indivuality & differences of opinions - and hope to see it in further expansions / battles ahead. Whether it’s a renage Old God (Xal’Atath for example) along with some other Void beings fighting against their brethren or the same ordeal with the Naaru (like A’dal) and other beings of light fighting against their own kind; both sides having be particularly fond of others whether mortal or otherwise. I liked seeing in Legion there were demons who hated the Legion & wanted to join forces with those that would stick it to them lol.
I think there has been a shift of morality on a cosmic level though, and that this is what some people are not happy with.
For example, I feel that Warcraft 3 was shown to be a mix of morally relative and black and white story-telling. It was shown that contrary to conventional fantasy tropes, humans could be villains and orcs could be heroes. But in that story, there were still moral absolutes on the cosmic level. IE: The Light is portrayed as universally good, and demons are portrayed as universally bad. (With the exception of Illidan. Maybe.)
Things have changed in modern WoW. The morality of these cosmic forces that were previously thought of as good or evil are now nebulous. The Light which was previously associated with justice, compassion and hope will now apparently try to enslave you if you are not down with any of these concepts. The Void which was previously shown to have a corrupting and devouring influence, is now a useful albeit still dangerous source of power that ‘good’ individuals can harness.
I am not saying that one is necessarily better than the other, but I think there are people who are more comfortable with the idea of a universe where there are fundamentally good forces that will look out for them, and fundamentally evil forces that they can oppose.
Exactly. All of a sudden Void, Death, and Disorder don’t want to eliminate life and cause suffering? And Light, Life, and Order do? Then what’s the point… One example are the blood elves, whose redemption was a powerful development in the story but under this new “way” of looking at things is just another neutral. Maybe cosmically life flourishing and diminishing suffering is no better than any other alternative, but to mortals, that is by definition “good” and worth fighting for.
The issue is separating the magical forces from the forces that support them. As an example:
In this case, it isn’t just that the naaru aren’t omniscient - it was that they were also fanatical. They were trying to strip Illidan of his identity and free will. For the Mag’har Orc recruitment campaign, Horde members see Yrel and the Lightforged Armies compelling the Mag’har to join their Army or be slaughtered. They were committing atrocities - in the name of the Light.
With that said, even separating the supporters of a sphere of magic from the magic itself doesn’t lead to many conflicting narratives. It’s pretty clear the “Light” is the side we support (similarly Life and Order). Mostly because there’s really no example of the opposite side (e.g. Void, Death, and Fel being “good”).
Illidan (I guess) is an example of using Fel “for good” but it was against the real “Fel” so I’m not sure it counts for much. We don’t exactly see any cases where “Death” is good and “Life” is evil, or anything along those lines.
Moral relativism can be interesting, but honestly there hasn’t exactly been much. If I see an Old God saving Azeroth then maybe there’d be more about it among the forces themselves. It would at least minimize the homogeneity within the forces.
Going one step further, outside of Legion content and looking at all Alliance and Horde Primary, Secondary, and even Tertiary Leaders, there’s an over incidence of Hunters, Warriors, Priests, Paladins, Mages, and Shamans, with very few of any other class, and exactly ZERO Warlocks counted among any Core Leadership anywhere.
Hold on… Life, light, and order do not guarantee freedom from suffering. They just promise order and life. An overabundance of life will suffocate itself, and an abundance of order will take your liberty. An overabundance of Light, will judge everything to condemnation!
Death, disorder, and shadow are balancing forces that bring peace to mortals!
There is a good reason for that and you know it. Warlocks, Demon Huntets and Death Knights are at best things you are suppose to tolerate because they can be useful but not something to be used as a building block for societies/be used in leadership positions in society. Also, Monks dominate the leadership position of the Pandarens.
And yet we now have Illidari as a universally trusted group of elite fel users and Death Knights are literally at the forefront of this expansion, even somehow existing as Death Knight Shadow Mages where shamans should be maintaining the portal to the afterlife lmao
Wow one race that won’t ever seen meaningful development ever again lol
Where did you get the idea the Illidari are even trusted? Heck, one of the comments from the night elves is how they don’t even think the player is a night elf anymore.
Also, just because you are at the forefront does not means people generally trust. You just happen to be able to get the job done.
Never say never, for the longest time the draenei barely had any role and look what happened. I expect the pandaren will get their time to shine sooner or later.
One of those three classes is not a hero class. So, all of the condemnation, none of the special perks.
Actually, Warlocks have lacked any serious presence among the core narrative with one giant glaring exception - villains.
Knights of the Ebon Blade and Illidari are/were both on the “good guy” side.
I’m debating whether Wilfred Fizzlebang’s brief appearance at the Trial of the Crusader counts as the largest protagonist plot movement by a Warlock (you know where he summons Lord Jaraxxus and promptly dies) or if it’s Tehd Shoemaker running around with Marius in Legion. Beyond that, there’s some trainers as a relic of having to fly back to cities to train things and maybe Professor Felblast and/or Oronok Torn-heart as a follower in WoD.
As antagonists? Well, let’s just list off a few of the big folks. Anetheron, Archimonde, Cho’gall, Grand Warlock Nethekurse, Grandmaster Vorpil, Gul’dan, Keli’dan the Breaker, Kil’jaeden, Ner’zhul, Olm the Summoner, Prince Malchezaar, Terestian Illhoof, Teron Gorefiend/Teron’gor, Zuluhed the Whacked
It’s part of the narrative issue with the Warlock class itself. In essence, we’re the bad guys. Since moral absolutism is pretty much par for the course as of late (see the faction conflict, the racial depictions, and even the cosmology) then might as well jump fully onboard and have a small storyline where we delete the Warlock PCs.
This, plus I would say that the position of “good and evil” versus “neutral” actors in the story has flipped. As you say above, there were cosmological moral absolutes in Warcraft 3, while mortals choose whether to be good or evil (“neutral” in the sense of not having an inherent alignment).
In modern WoW, there are no cosmological moral absolutes, so the cosmic forces and their direct followers (like demons) are now “neutral.” But mortals, both in the individual and group sense, seem to be increasingly sorted into “absolutely and inherently good” and “absolutely and inherently evil.”
I don’t think it’s just a matter of comfort or matching up with personal philosophy. “Go kill the bad guy” is solid storytelling in a game we play for relaxation.
Because with how they’ve written it the only virtue a member of a Horde race can have is how submissive and convenient they are for the Alliance. While the Alliance have been built up into flawless paragons of every moral virtue ever conceived by man. To such an extent that they are Morality itself in this setting now.
I think the sticking point for a lot of people is how dysfunctional can something be before it is no longer considered a dysfunction and just part of their character.
The Horde is portrayed as being capable of good in the way that Conan the Barbarian is good, namely they’re good insofar as they deploy their crazy violence against entities that are even worse than they are.
A simpler way to put it could be:
Light without the benefit of Shadow, is just as blind, as Darkness without any Light.
What good is Order if you can never improve your own lot in life? You toil away for someone else’s benefit, and are then sacrificed with no rewards for your effort for their gain yet again?
The Legion appears to be the best of example of that.
Even the concept of redemption becomes questionable, when you consider who gives forgiveness and how.
This is one of the biggest points I like about Illidan, the Demon Hunters, Death Knights, and even the Horde.
Choice is one of the most important things we can ever have.
Moral relativism isn’t necessarily boring so long as it isn’t used in ways that are stupid.
Like, you can acknowledge that Light casts a Shadow which cannot exist without Light, and that Life begets Death which begets Life, without extrapolating that into “therefore shibboleths and zombies are equally desirable to have around as anything else”
That is the kind of stupid edgelord rationale that people love to apply to fiction where there are no consequences but would never apply to real life.
