why doesn’t mongoose restart timer when building stacks!
Because you’d keep it up 100% of the time at max stacks ?
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doesn’t every other class refresh their dots?
But that was the entire purpose of MB design - you have burst windows where you pool resources for it and ramp up stacks, not just sit at perma max stacks
so hunters get no dot to refresh ? even though its part of our rotation to build stacks to apply more damage
It isn’t a dot tho
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aka mongoose bite which need to get 5 stacks within 15 seconds
if mongoose’s duration refreshed, then its damage would be tuned around being at max stacks. it would probably start lower and wouldn’t go as high. so basically at the start of combat it’d kinda suck to press, and then after a ramp period it’d feel okay
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First in the current version of survival, MB is only a filler, you don’t need to chase the max burst window with it.
If it’s a problem for you, play with RS.
With my current stats
RS does 257203
While MB does
-1st (no stack) 209819
-2nd (1 stack) 241292
-3rd (2 stacks) 281885
-4th (3 stacks) 304237
For the same cost (120 focus) 4 RS do 1028812
while 4 MB do 1037233
As we are not playing with much haste, it takes to much time to be really good.
If you play (the usual) sentinel, bomb on cd (and often) use KC before for tip, and play with butchery for more bombs, you’ll get ~3 full stack MB at most in your rotation. not worth to chase this imho
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It’s not exclusive to Hunter, Unholy DK has Festermight that functions the same way, stacking strength but not refreshing timer
I guess if we’re looking for a compromise, we could go the way of buff extensions with diminishing returns:
Mongoose Bite #1 - Applies Mongoose Fury buff with 15s duration
Mongoose Bite #2 - Extends Mongoose Fury by 7.5 sec
Mongoose Bite #3 - extends Mongoose Fury by 2.5 sec
Mongoose Bite #4 - does not extend Mongoose Fury
The buff would still run out, but the window would feel less restrictive.
Most DoTs don’t increase your filler direct damage by 75%.
Why wouldn’t you just increase the timer then?
More importantly, though, assuming a balanced state whereby Mongoose Bite + Bloody Claws is a competitive choice even in M+, any increase to its uptime would have to come at a decrease to its potency, which then muddies out the whole point of taking those talents over keeping Raptor Strike and adding some crit bonus, Exposed Flanks, WFB damage, or the like.
If anything, it’d make more sense to go the other way, whereby you start with Mongoose Fury at a much longer duration, but each Mongoose Bite increases Mongoose Bite’s damage by a further 15% but accelerates the decay rate of Mongoose Fury by 15% or so. In that way, you’re not so prevented from using Mongoose Bite just to spread Serpent Sting or fill space when Focus is high before actually being able to go ham with it.
So here, a countersuggestion:
Mongoose Bite
Melee range. Deals 200% Attack Power to target and grants Mongoose Fury for 25 seconds. Mongoose Fury may stack up to 5 times, but new applications will not refresh the original duration.Mongoose Fury – Increases the damage of Mongoose Bite but also increases the rate at which its own duration fades by 15% per stack.
- Because the first stack affects its own duration, Mongoose Fury’s actual starting duration is just over 21 seconds.
- That starting duration should be sufficient to hit 2 fully buffed (5-stack) Mongoose Bites [i.e., 7 MBs total] if starting from full Focus at a ~1.33 GCD or less, even without any other means of Focus generation. (Granted, that’s according only to quick napkin math.) With free-casts (via PL) or bonus Focus regen (via ToE, Sentinel, etc.), a bit more.
- Because each Mongoose accelerates the drain rate of Mongoose Fury, Haste won’t be quite as incentivized as before but still provides a significant advantage.
-
Yes, Bloody Claws would need revision accordingly, such as by granting an additional 0.2 seconds of duration per stack or some other bonus such as Mongoose Fury lingering for a few seconds or an extra hit after it would normally fade or instead reducing Mongoose Bite’s Focus cost by 2 Focus per stack of Mongoose Fury.
Or, better yet, just let it ramp a bit faster:
Mongoose Bite
Melee range. Deals 200% Attack Power to target and grants Mongoose Fury for 18 seconds. Mongoose Fury may stack up to 3 times, but new applications will not refresh the original duration.Mongoose Fury – Increases the damage of Mongoose Bite but also increases the rate at which its own duration fades by 25% per stack.
2 Likes
I tried Pack Leader + Bloody Claws a few days ago on Ansurek
During lust you can really spam full stacked MB, Bloody Claws and all KC reset make it so easy. MB wasn’t the biggest dmg source but it was still fun to play except for all those full stack MB scream…
Maybe with the buff to MB in the PL tree on 11.0.5 it will be a thing
The short answer is that I would not want to make it a “gimme”, for lack of better words.
Granted, if we’re going to seriously talk design, I’d nerf the duration of the initial strike to about 12 seconds then add the diminishing returns starting at 4s on Mongoose Bite #2, 2s on Mongoose Bite #3, 1s on Mongoose Bite #4 and no extensions on Mongoose Bite #5 and beyond (giving us a total duration of 19s). Bloody Claws’ Mongoose Fury extension would need to be changed into something else if Kill Command is kept as is.
I see the merits of your suggestion, but I think it’d have a weird relationship with Haste. It’d possibly become more important than it currently is, but that may be the fact that the first thing that came to mind as I read it was how DoTs scale with haste.
I think this would work.
I don’t think MB needs reinvented much. It’s fine with bloody claws. Anything other than that and you might as well just make the buff true permanent or in other words buff raptor strike
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But the result is identical. There’s virtually no way that one would lack the time to use one extra MB within 15 seconds, a total of two extra within 22.5 seconds, or a total of three extra within 25 seconds, so that design would effectively have just given it a 25 second duration, but with a bloated tooltip.
It would be faintly less, as there’d be slight anti-synergy, not more. Granted, it was already hugely important, especially at/up to certain thresholds. The main difference is simply that you increase the need to commit your uptime towards Mongoose Bites proportional to your stack count, rather than it being effectively all-in from the moment you get your first stack. That, in turn, reduces the punishment of using Mongoose Bite for other reasons (such as Serpent Spread or avoiding Focus overcap) as an opener to the Mongoose Bite window.
That is, while it similarly has increased tooltip complexity, it would offer QoL and reduced kit anti-synergies with MB — something of at least proportional value.
Sidenote: It may be worth noting that the overall synergy issues were far less back in BfA and Shadowlands, if only because MB was that much more single-purpose. Without it applying Serpent Sting and through having that as a frequent means to neutralize Focus generation, it could be utilized more purely when ready. Had it not replaced Raptor Strike outright, even more so.
I guess my stance is that I’d prefer some form of player input over giving them the extended duration on the first hit. As for tooltips, we already have really long tooltips (see: rogues), so it wouldn’t be anything new.
Sure, but is “don’t afk yet” really player “input”? Again, one would be forced to hit MB within the initial timer anyways if only not to overlap on Focus and TotS. And since you can the duration, it then ends up functioning identically to a longer duration.
For actual scaled duration, we already have Bloody Claws. MB’s being worthwhile just shouldn’t absolutely need it even in Fortified keys, is all. There should be more of a granular choice there. To do that, though, it just needs a slightly lower minimum investment threshold. Since we can do that through tuning without buffing its raid throughout, then lowering its stacks would be best. Or, if we simply want it to be less anyi-synergetic with the DF-onward bundled functions of RS/MB, reducing the initial punishment of using MB without being ready to hard funnel (via the variable duration suggested above or by again separating RS/MB) would be best.
Just make it a charges system
Each mb stack is a single charge and thrn you have 3-4 hits at max stacks then back to 0 remove timers whatsoever
Changing it to charges would remove most of its related skill expression and increase its damage in situations where it would otherwise previously have gotten fewer max hits over time and/or nerf it in situations where it previously (especially, with great Haste) would have gotten more max hits over time. It’d be athematic, dull, and something of a balancing nightmare for the more immediate future.