Mistweavers on beta - Where are you struggling?

Classes Monk
1

I’ve heard feedback (mainly on the forums) about mana struggles in the beta heroics but everyone I’ve talked to has had the opposite experience, myself included, so I have a few questions:

  1. What build are you running?
  2. Any specific dungeons giving you a harder time than others?
  3. What types of damage taken is worst for your mana? (AoE, cleave, single/two target)
  4. Can you post your logs if you have them? (Details can be useful but logs are preferred)

I’m under the impression that people are uncomfortable with the new dungeons, new playstyle, and are not playing optimally especially if you don’t have your normal UI available, which is totally understandable. My main concern comes from the fact that these are heroic dungeons and, though we haven’t had a tuning pass yet, we aren’t tuned too low that it’s a problem.

Would love to get some insight on this.

EDIT: Referenced these posts

Obviously being concerned about mana is normal especially as we look towards M+ but from these two posts it seems as though they’re having problems in the current heroics.

6 Likes
2

I knew this was coming when I saw none reply to your thread. I’ll post like you wanted.

I had a mana problem in like 3 heroics because the tank was chain pulling massive amounts of mobs. I couldn’t just let FLS / ATOTM do all my healing because the group was taking too much damage. Normal heroics had no mana problems nor did i even drop below 50%.

When we actually need to heal with EVM / Vivify our mana drops unbelievably fast. Its a problem that we’ll see in M+ if there’s no mana return on the new affix. Don’t see why our mana would be any better in DF compared to SL. We save a little bit on FLS because we wont cast essence font in 5mans.

We’ll see more when M+ is released because right now heroics wont do it anymore with the ~390 ilvl gear. We need M+ because right now we just SCK through the entire dungeon doing 20k dps while our passive healing is doing everything.

Side Notes / thoughts:

We also need Chi-Ji / Rapid Diffusion to be fixed to give a better idea. Also would be great to see the 4% avoidance / leech working.

I also think our burst HPS is unmatched atm. I think we are in a better position than SL. We still have no great utility like the other healers so we better hope our damage is tuned higher in 5mans to compensate.

1 Like
3

I’ll preface this by saying that I don’t think anyone, playing any healer, in any dungeon on beta right now is having problems in Heroics if the group isn’t making huge mistakes. Like I said in the post you quoted, 90% of Heroics at the moment can be run without a healer. For the sake of testing I ran a Heroic where I didn’t cast a single spell and healed only through ATotM and Fistweaving to see what it would be like. Obviously I never dropped below 95% mana but I also ended the dungeon on 8k HPS overall and could of probably not been there at all and the group could of completed the dungeon no problem. Overall, I did almost 50% more damage than healing, if that helps put it into perspective.

However it is possible to extrapolate from beta Heroics that Mistweavers will have issues with mana in M+ like they do currently unless a seasonal affix band-aids the problem like it does now.

The final boss of Brackenhide Hollow spawns totems which pulse ramping AoE damage. If your group targets them quickly there is almost nothing to heal. If they ignore the totems you can wipe while doing 45k HPS.

Obviously both of those scenarios are at extreme ends of the spectrum of what is likely to happen in M+. The probable outcome is that groups will kill the totems ASAP but some serious healing will still be required which will automatically rule out cheap Fistweaving healing through ATotM because it simply isn’t meaningful throughput on single targets. Healing for 125% of ~215% spell power RSK or 85% spell power BoK isn’t moving health bars back up when a Vivify can heal upwards of 900% spell power each cast.

This means two things; Enveloping is likely not worth pressing when you can just press another Vivify instead for more healing per cast and per mana, and Lifecycles loses its value. Spirit of the Crane can help with mana throughout a key but it isn’t going to be helping on a boss fight that necessitates casted healing for high throughput. Which leaves Mana Tea and the question of whether or not that talent alone is going to be enough to get a casting Mistweaver through a high throughput boss fight for 2-3-4 minutes?

It hasn’t been in Shadowlands and I don’t think it’s too much of a stretch to assume it also wont be in Dragonflight. Single target ATotM throughput has also been cut in half and I’m not sure improved ReM coverage and Enveloping procs from talents will be enough to make up for the loss in “free” or cheap healing.

Obviously that is an example of 1 boss from 1 dungeon but there are quite a few of those sorts of unavoidable party-wide damaging mechanics in the DF dungeons. For the most part they don’t do anything on Heroic at the moment but they will in M+ as bosses start living longer and damage scales.

lmao I thought the same thing.

The leech is working for me.

4

O look at that! It is working now.

5

That feel when a 2 point passive is better than a capstone statue :frowning:

6

Hopefully they put m0 and m+ on beta soon. If any yall wanna run lmk

7

I think this is one of the most annoying bugs I’ve ever dealt with lol

I would disagree with this, MW has a good toolkit for M+ and it allows for lots of add control

I agree with this, numbers aside because we’re still pre-tuning cycles, the playstyle is much more fluid and doesn’t feel clunky like it does in SL.

Mistweaver has minimal mana problems in S4, especially if you run higher mastery, and if mana issues are present it’s usually because of poor HoT management or failing dps checks which is out of our control (for the most part).

To be fair it has always been like this, relying on ATotM to do meaningful triage has never been the correct way to use it. ATotM is designed to be maintenance healing and allow us to set up for group-wide Vivify cleave.

Appreciate the replies, we’ll see how things shake out when M+ comes out Soon™

8

I agree! Atotm has never been dependable healing. If you need to heal heal you cast a heal!

This statement highly depends on a lot of factors…
Like

  • Do you need AoE or ST healing?
  • Does the target have renewing mist?
  • Are you going to extend the Enveloping Mist through Rising Mist?
  • Do you have Tear of Morning?
  • How much haste do you have?
  • How many extra casts do you need to put into that person
  • Are you casting through Soothing Mist?

You can very very very easily make ENM far better than Vivify for single target healing, what its designed for

2 Likes
9

Are you all running Tear of Morning for 5mans??

Also! I have a feeling the devs are thinking about taking our 4% avoidance away. That is a lot of reduce damage we bring passively and they probably know that 4% avoidance + Leech is pretty big. That is now big raid utility.

2 Likes
10

Me personally, no. But its a factor that I’m not going to ignore when doing math :stuck_out_tongue:
Rather see as many options/possibilities as possible than limit to what I personally want to play

1 Like
11

I think it’s realistic to expect nerfs on this ): at the very least I’d expect them to change it so it won’t stack

12

Now that I’m aware of our leech talent working! I’m pretty sure our leech talent gets nerfed as well.

Leech from me / everyone did more healing than my highest healing ability for the dungeon. Thats really OP.

The leech together did 3,760,000 healing together.
My Enveloping Mist, my highest healing ability was at 2,660,000 healing.

I can’t be 100% sure that all the leech healing was from my talent. But chances are most of the leech was from the 4%.

13

Some classes have a lot of leech bonuses, I know Warrior and DK get a ton of leech bonus. Warrior I think has 2 talents that give you 10% more leech

Id just hate to see them nerf leech or avoidance on the monk class tree when they fight for raid/m+ spots.

I do think i read where leech was a bug it was adding it to gear not the baseline or maybe that hasnt been fixed yet either in the current beta build

14

Since this thread started with mana.

Potion of Chilled Clarity is freaking OP.

You’ll probably save near 100k mana with 1 potion! Probably get a nerf soon.

15

I think these tertiary talents are already somewhat balanced around their limited 10 yard range. I agree they’re very strong even with limited range but I also think having such underwhelming capstone talents might allow the tertiary ones to survive tuning.

I know it’s too late for big tree adjustments but I’d even prefer to see the tertiary talents become the capstone talents and buffed to 20 yards but only be able to take 2 of the 3 due to point constraints and as Meg said, not have them stack.

True, however with the Faeline nodes and the ability to hit multiple targets on packs, Mistweaver can now do exactly that sometimes. Having such a specific and powerful niche is something I am wary of regarding tuning; that ATotM and the Faeline branch is now very strong in dungeons/M+ on packs and any boss with adds but absolutely useless on single targets.

I know we can change talents at will in Heroics and out in the world but I assume the restriction on gear swapping and talent changing in M+ will continue in Dragonflight at which point I assume every MW will have ~5 wasted points on their tree every time they get to a boss that requires casted throughput.

I hope we don’t see tuning be a simple matter of nerfing Vivify back to its pre-improved-vivify levels and perhaps nerfing Faeline cleave from 2/3 BoK cleaves to 1/2 because Blizzard are concerned with MW throughput when hitting multiple targets. I also hope we don’t end up with a meta where Mistweavers feel they have to take a caster focused tree for serious content and that Faeline is only good for trash packs in M+.

16

gonna have to define what a ‘caster focused tree’ is to you, cause I honestly can’t see most of the SooM talents being picked outside PvP.

17

Whatever you want that isn’t Faeline Stomp, Awakened Faeline, Ancient Concordance, Teachings and Ancient Teachings.

Most Fistweaving trees are spending those 5-7 points along with Rising Mists and forgoing Secret Infusion, Bonedust, Invokers, Mist Wrap, Mana Tea/Lifecycles, Overflowing Mists, Tea of Plenty/Serenity and necessarily giving up Clouded Focus.

So the question is; when ATotM and the Faeline branch is almost useless on bosses, are Mistweavers going to be tuned around needing those other talents or not needing them?

It’s a strange discussion to be having and something I’m keen to see more of because the Faeline branch is so incredibly powerful and fun in one specific aspect of the game and so utterly not in all others that I wonder if it’s going to cause issues for balancing.

Then I also have the more tangential almost rhetoric question of what is the real value in having a significant portion of the Mistweaver tree be unusable in most raid situations, most bossing situations and all of PvP? I don’t know of any other healing spec that has a branch that basically reads “really good on M+ trash and unusable in all other aspects of the game”. If bosses have a lot of add mechanics I guess it’s really only a PvP unviability issue.

18

There is an argument that Ancient Concordance adding RSK reset chance gives a fair boost to most boss fights. Once they’ve fixed Rapid Diffusion to not overwrite longer spells there could be a tactic to leverage that in raid for wider coverage.

19

Maybe. But I doubt the guy spending globals on TP > BoK for RSK resets on top of FLS is going to out heal the guy who spends the same mana on Vivify/EF/RJW.

If Rising Mists extended the 6s RSK ReM it might add non-trivial healing but as it stands at the moment trading multiple GCD’s for at best 1 extra ReM isn’t worth it if those GCD’s aren’t also contributing anything meaningful per se.

The reason Rapid Diffusion is so good in dungeons is because the FLS branch is allowing you to do significant HPS while doing damage without spending mana and Rapid Diffusion gives you more ReM coverage “for free” so to speak. In raid or on a boss you’re basically just spending many globals on somewhere between 0.5 and 1 additional ReM on average and will be suboptimal 99.9% of the time.

We might even get guides that tell new Mistweavers not to fish for RSK resets because it’s a noob trap and spending the Fistweaving talents or globals or mana on anything else is better.

20

Hmm I see your points, but I am not sure it’s a problem if one build is great in m+ but not what you use in raid - if anything, I think that’s a good thing.

With the inclusion on talent loadouts and being able to swap anywhere outside of combat, I don’t see an issue in having separate parts of the spec tree being bad in some instances and good in others.

Maybe. But I doubt the guy spending globals on TP > BoK for RSK resets on top of FLS is going to out heal the guy who spends the same mana on Vivify/EF/RJW.

I don’t know if this is really comparable - for one, vivify got buffed in DF compared to SL, whereas RJW has lost some power from lack of 4pc. If you’re talking a single target raid boss, then yeah, a FLS style build probably isn’t going to be the greatest build (because most of the FLS talents are for cleave) but in the end it’ll all depend on tuning.
(And fixing the current ToM-OM interaction bug.)

Even in SL our playstyle has involved weaving in casting (enveloping mist on heavy ST dots/damage, vivify in heavy aoe damage situations) around maintaining via ATOTM & RM. The fistweaving side has been pretty heavy, but we still manage to pump some serious groupwide heals by maintaining ReMs.

Then I also have the more tangential almost rhetoric question of what is the real value in having a significant portion of the Mistweaver tree be unusable in most raid situations, most bossing situations and all of PvP? I don’t know of any other healing spec that has a branch that basically reads “really good on M+ trash and unusable in all other aspects of the game”. If bosses have a lot of add mechanics I guess it’s really only a PvP unviability issue.

So my thoughts on this are - it’s looking like we’re actually going to have some cleave raid bosses in the first tier, so depending on tuning of both MW spells and raid boss damage, FLS could possibly see some play in raid.

In PVP you are correct - you probably aren’t going to use FLS or even ATOTM - but that’s hardly a difference from SL and is partially because of how dangerous it is for a healer to be in melee. Holy Paladins have the same problem in PvP of having to primarily play a build that keeps them at ranged - because closing the gap yourself is incredibly risky in the current state of PvP. There’s also the addition of not using spells like EF in PvP because of the mana cost compared to what you gain from it.

I don’t think that is a bad thing, either - because it’s going to be the same for the other healer specs. Some things will be great in m+, bad in raid, and unusable in PvP. Some things will be useless in m+, great in raid, decent in PvP. And so on. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with having separate builds for separate areas of the game (forgive me if this is not what you ultimately have a problem with).

1 Like