Mistweaver needs this, Fist doesnt

Classes Monk
21

you said a lot of things but none of them were “ya you’re right, you play mastery/vers necro so your revivals are going to be huge” which would’ve been the correct thing to say.
instead of arguing with peoples’ io scores and random lookup ego, you should just use your brain.

i’m like 180% mastery with necro buff and +30% vers. i’m not talking about your parses or your stats or blah blah blah none of that is particularly relevant to the topic of what revival can do , i’m talking about what can happen when you hit revival w/ my stats in raid XD if u choose to play crit venthyr, then ya, your revival is going to be a lot worse but that’s your trade off for higher hps.

22

your revivals with necro COULD be higher. you just wont crit as much which is where the problem is. If i crit for 16k and you heal for just 9k my gusts will be lower but my bonedust will be much higher. to the point it would even out and be roughly the same if not crit/vers would be infront slightly simply because gusts can crit and 8% crit isnt going to out play a 40% crit chance gusts majority of the time

do not get my wrong, i do play Venthyr on my main which limits my conduit choices away from Revival, but on the alt i play Revival Bonedust/nightfae (when im bored) and for M+ on both i am stacking haste/mastery. I can tell you bonedust revival is extremely weak vs Venthyr Crit in raid and M+. First of all unity makes Venthyr up basically every minute and a half by default. Bonedust is about 45seconds if not slightly less… but the strength of Venthyr is with the seasonal Affix and its 3 envelopings a second (ramping up ofcourse, first 2 are instant third is a second later and then every 2seconds with a new spawn if its not the defensive ox or windwalker melee (happens atleast once per CD

23

you should run the test, you might be surprised :slight_smile:

24

no need to test, this is why i have 2 monks both geared

25

for entertainment purposes im going to give you a rough break down of why Crit/vers outplays Vers/mastery using just revival bonedust and double gusts.

268 ilvl
Crit 40%/vers 19%: (my Main when Bonedust)

15.8k Revival Crit+ 3.6k Gusts Crit 1+ 2.6k bonedust gusts 1+ 3.6k Gusts Crit 2 + 2.6k bonedust gusts 2 + 13.2k Bonedust.

41.4k

267 ilvl
Haste 28%/ Vers 22%: (my haste alt with chi-ji and Bonedust (normally running kyrian but for this i ran bonedust))

9.2k Revival + 1.8k gusts + 1.5k BD +1.8k Gusts 2 + 1.5k BD + 7.8k Bonedust

23.6k

266ilvl
Vers31%/Mastery141%: (you with bonedust)

10.1k Revival + 5.5k gusts1 + 4.4k BD+ 5.5k gusts 2 + 4.4k BD + 8k BD

37.9k

After futher inspection of your % value your Mastery is offering you 5.1k not 5.5k this takes your total healing down to about 34.5k as it reduces the Bonedusts and gusts.

reasoning behind granting crit to my first example and none of the others is simply because my alt has 12% crit, you have 9% crit, your crits are far from reliable so the base number should only be shown. if you crit on revival or gusts, you in the zone, but 9% is super low so you will crit 9 targets out of every 100 on average

26

its 5.5k , 2 gusts because EF, 2 gusts from bonedust proc, w/ addition healing from bonedust on each gust (which is like around ~7K ea, which you didn’t even include in the math anywhere), + revival + bonedusted revival

Gust of Mists = 5.5K
Essence Font = 5.5K × 2 = 11K
Resplendent Mists conduit = 30% chance to make Gust of Mists proc for 100% more healing
(5.5K × 2)~2 = 16.5-22K
+Crit
((5.5K × 2)~2)~2 = 27.5-44K

on Bonedust Brew = (5.5K × 2)2 + (7 × 2) = 36K
w/ resplendent ((5.5K × 2)~2)2 + (7 × 2) = 47-58K
+Crit
(((5.5K × 2)~2)~2)2 + (7 × 2) = 69-102K

+revival 10K
= ~46K (or ~56K if revival bonedusts) , per target before any resplendent or crit procs (which are very likely across a raid of 20 people getting hit 2x ea(+revival hit that can crit))

mastery/vers necro has the most powerful version of revival, bar none.

i’m not saying you should run it, venthyr is definitely the better option in keys/raid with crit/vers;
i think the point of all this math is to say that maybe revival isn’t underpowered, especially when attempting to compare w/ other healing raid cds, its actually extraordinarily over-the-top, you’re just running a build that is more focused on other things than having an over-the-top raid cd. (you get a worse revival but also get fallen order)

====================================================================
also, just for fun, math for your crit/vers:

Gust of Mists = 1.6K
Essence Font = 1.6K × 2 = 3.2K
Resplendent Mists conduit = 30% chance to make Gust of Mists proc for 100% more healing
(1.6K × 2)~2 = 4.8-6.4K
+Crit
(1.6K × 2)~2)~2 = 9.6-12.8K

on Bonedust Brew = (1.6K × 2)2 + (7 × 2) = 20.4K
w/ resplendent ((1.6K ×2)~2)2 + (7 × 2) = 23.6-26.8K
+Crit
(((1.6K × 2)~2)~2)2 + (7 × 2) = 33.2-39.6K

+revival 7.9K
= 28.3K (or ~36.2K if revival bonedusts) , per target before any resplendent or crit procs
accounting for max crits = ~42.6K ( or ~58.4 if crit revival bonedusts)

So basically, at your absolute maximum rng, you can achieve the base healing that revival will provide to mastery/vers. If revival crits for mastery/vers, eons ahead. If any thing crits or gets even a single resplendent proc, eons ahead. The exponential value of mastery, specifically when talking about Revival, far outweighs crit.

27

No it was my mistake , I should have just picked a better log but I was looking at that one already and went too far, not paying attention.

You can just use this phase 1 vigilent log.
1:00 : You can see the overhealing on the DK, DH, Mage and you can see how it never jumps to the rogues. Despite being the lowest health targets at 1:05 up until the jump.

1:17 again it looks like the ReM on the DK jumped to the DH at 97% health who managed to hang on to it

1:43 the monk cast a ReM on self (triggering overhealing and a jump). Nardsy would have been the lowest health but the jump never went to that druid. The monk manually cast at 1:47 to give him ReM.

1:52 again the jump went to the mage not the tank at 54%

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Y4PLfMrGdANbZvKD#fight=1&type=healing&source=6&phase=1&ability=119611&view=events&start=258592&end=267666

28

So regarding why the DK has overhealing running when rouges have no Renewing mists on them. At the time the renewing mists ticked (roughly every .9 of a second by the looks of it the DK is not full health, when the DK finally gets full health the rouges are full health so it picks another target after its final overheal. Which is why after 1:02- 1:03.8. Which is why at 1:03.8 to 1:04.1 there is no tick, its tick had not happeend, seocnd it happened the mage absolutelord again had taken damage so it hasnt jumped off yet. IF the target is not full health it will not jump at that time.

By the time the damage comes out at 1:03.8 the Deathknight Cantseeirl and Absolutelord (the mage) have taken enough damage to deem themself a good enough target for renewing mists to not jump off to the rouges (since everyone took damage at that time and not just the mage the overheal had not happened at that point.

To clarify the Overheal does not make it auto jump if there is no target available.

what you failed to say is that the renewing mists on the DK had 1.8seconds left but by thte time it hits the DH it has 0.9seconds left implying it was over ridden and a new renewing mists on the target it jumped to made it jump again, incuring no healing between that jump. (the smart heal aspect has kicked in at this point)

The Druid at this point was not in range of the renewing mists. It has a limited range and isnt just raid wide you know… this could be either 1 of 2 things, the monk or druid was running a mechanic out, orbs or beams. Either way the renewing mist decided the best target within range is not the druid so it jumped to a better target. (smart healing aspect again, not in range, im jumping any way)(main reason to stay within range of your mistweaver)

Again the jump went to the lowest health in range target, the jump came from a ranged character implying that your ranged are not stacking enough for the tanks to get it or the tank had left to obtain an Add. (my money is on the 2nd one because of the concept of the fight)

In all 4 cases you just linked it shows the Renewing mist smart heal chases down the in range lowest health target. Renewing mist does not have an 80 yard range, it does not have time to wait, if you are not within range it will just jump. Stay in range of your healers if you need healing. Simple -.-

29

Aside from the fun maths discussion, I have a question on the premise;

What exactly is this proposed set of changes (a nerf to Revival and a new CD added) supposed to solve exactly?
And also pertinent; why is it important this be given to the ‘mistweaving’ playstyle exclusively?

30

OK so Revival under performs if not behind some massive set up or required Covenant. Removal of the covenant system allows us to revisit Revival and its actual effectiveness.

I propose a new ability is added called Chi-bomb:

Chi-Bomb: 2second cast time (instant down soothing mists), Applies a healing bomb to the target, when the bomb explodes it erupts with lesser chi waves to everyone within (X yards) and the lesser Chi Waves bounce (Y) times.

i would say a 1.5 or 2minute CD depending on its power.

In this instance the healing (X) from Chi-Bomb would be 3-4k because chi waves react in a unique manner and aoe heal even tho its single target healing going off. Healing can be adjusted based on number of chi wave bounces, im thinking 3-4, but 4-5 might be the end result.

This provides a unique heal over time aspect that is just direct healing and a CD that is unlike any other CD in the game.

I also thought there is another route with it to absorb all incoming healing for a time just to give some choices to development but after consideration its not really viable because of the healing and set up you would need to do. You can chi bomb at the start of the fight and just save it til the very end for a full heal. Which while is unique, could have some massive exploits behind it some how.

This is strictly a proposed Mistweaver idea as Fistweaving requires its own Tree or side of the talent tree IMO. I posted another post called “General Monk changes id like to see in Dragonflight”.

The Concept for Fistweaving is that it would have its own Side of the talent tree and be a unique play style, because of this it would need its own version of Chi Bomb but as Chi-bomb would be focused down soothing you could return Zen Pulse to fistweavers as a CD. For the Fistweaving one to work you would need to bring back eminence which is basically the legendary every monk is running right now any way.

Zen Pulse: Instant cast, pulses the Target with an instant heal (X) dealing damage to enemies around the target and healing nearby allies for (Y).

Zen Pulse would be the same CD wise as Chi-Bomb so 1.5 to 2Min
Zen Pulse could also increase Eminence healing by 200% and effect more targets at a time if it was under performing vs Chi-Bomb. Adjusting the numbers would increase its output instead of changing it all over again.
Damage done by Zen Pulse would also heal up to 6 targets via Eminence.

In this case the instant heal (X) would be a lower number because of the output of Eminence (Y) which might require some extreme numbers because its based on a raid size scenario… I’m thinking in current gear 4-5k

The reasoning behind the math in this topic is to show that you have to either pick a certain covenant or just not use Revival to its full effectiveness.

31

Okay, so it’s basically helping us with pulsing aoe where revival is kind of iffy.

Could be a cool addition then, especially compared to how genuinely annoying enveloping breath is as a mechanic.

To be completely honest, I absolutely despise the idea of fistweaving being majority eminence healing. I’m sure it’s a fun concept but it’s one of those things I really can’t objectively approach.

32

At its current creation (#8) Revival in the conduit system provides a pulsing Heal over time. While the conduit system is vanishing we are going to be getting ANOTHER Recreation of revival in dragonflight. Be it just increased healing, HoT baked in. It will still be missing the bonedust brew bonus unless they make that baseline for mistweaver which i will stop playing if they do.

After Dragonflight prepatch we are going to be stuck with the situation where its just a basic heal that double gusts when essence font is active.

Currently this is how Fistweaver and Mistweaver are played to full effect. The legendary Power that is usually on bracers is called "Ancient Teachings of the monastery. This is just eminence with 1 extra step. Use Essence font, get eminence for 15seconds.

No borrowed power will exist in Dragonflight so this is either getting baked in or a talent or just doesnt exist any more. To save Mistweaver and Fistweaver and allow them to play completely different you need to have access to Eminence when fistweaving.

33

I mean like disc atonement levels, not ATotM levels.
The majority of my healing on most fights is from ‘mistweaver’ spells rather then damage conversions.

34

thats why im saying make mistweaver a thing

35

We dont have exact distances in logs but I think its very unlikely that targets continued to be out of range for jumps for when they were being hit by RJW. You can even see the range that the mage blinks (20 yards) is bigger than the gap between the majority of players. It only picks an injured target in range. There is zero evidence that it cares if you are the most injured.

36

Chi wave should be reworked so that it’s useable during soothing mist and pulses actual waves of healing in a radius as it moves along the soothing mist from monk to the target.

Then again I have a short novel of changes I’d make to the mistweaver spec if I could.

37

This is not a true statement, the main reason for FW is due to rising mist, use being coeded as melee, and having a core damage rotation of damaging abilities. Before ATotM, back in BFA the distinction of FW still existed. Nyalotha saw the rise of this playstyle over Upwelling. Realistically Rising Mist had been a better talent for some time, but it took a while for the sample size to be large enough to convince the greater playerbase to shift away from Upwelling/get accustomed to being in melee and doing damage.

38

zero evidence it doesnt. In Mists of Pandaria WoD and Legion it always prioritized the most hurt. I think there was even a artifact passive based around its jump range.

If it has been changed, which no patch note has said it has been (i went through every patch note about monks since 7.0 and none of it says it doesnt do that any more.

39

fistweaving has been a thing since roughly End of throne of thunder, Eminence was just removed and replaced with something else.

40

It was a thing before ToT, 5.2 just made it so you had to commit to tiger palm if you used jab.