It also creates a hostile unhealthy environment to play in. You got me killed! I just lost all my buffs! Now 39 other stressed out people are flipping the f out.
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I feel you missed my point. I can list many of these situations from vannila, tbc, wrath most gms have 0 idea how to handle the situation because 1, they dont have the resources to fix the problem and 2, they have never encountered it before as they are not the ones testing for these things. Its not until 100’s of cases of the same thing happening do they have the knowledge to fix the issue. Can give an even more recent example and that would be mythic helya. A gm was spectating the raid watching 150 plus pulls of a boss when it died the dev team noticed it was due to an exploit and banned for a week. The gm’s spectating this had 0 idea
lv 12 pally juggling oh so many cds
People not min maxing are wasting my time
If your time playing the game is considered wasted if your not grinding mats or jumping IF gap then your doing it wrong.
This irks me to no end. I earned everything I have. IRL. As a 50 year old, I am confused by your generation’s inability to distinguish between a game and real life. Or is it even a generational thing? I don’t think so. Every generation, including yours, felt entitled to stuff in their teens. However, that has nothing whatsoever to do with games. Every generation, including yours, has players who understand the difference between diversions that reward entertainment and jobs that reward tangible goods. The only gimme I’ve seen on the Classic forums are players demanding harder content when sheer sub numbers clearly indicate that most players are satisfied with the current difficulty.
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Tipsout. 
Unfortunately some people only like good numbers.
It’s a way for people to blame others.
It’s also a way to monitor your team. If someone is straight up afking in fights, its grounds to boot em, etc.
Some people enjoy burning themselves out with efficiency. And in time those people will be gone.
I semi play wow as sort of a second life. Hanging out with people, killing monsters, and doing cool schlit. But just as I would in life, when it’s time for battle I show up prepared as I can be. But some people dont do that.
Some people need their hands held, and play the game so casually that it’s actually detrimental.
There are more than two types of people who play this game. It’s not just casuals and minmaxers. And I’m not talking about in between these two extremes either.
Both minmaxers and super casuals are bad for WoW. This game was never a race, but it also was never just a hang out zone to bullschlit whenever it came time to kill something.
WoW has always been a fantasy world where people joined because they love it. They love swords, shields, spells. Bows arrows, beasts, dragons. Becoming stronger and outwitting their foes.
When you come into this game and treat it like a job you get whiny people, like casuals and they actually are a reason the game is the way it is in retail, they ruined it. But just as so the minmaxer meta crowd ruined it as well.
So blizzard has spent all this time trying to make the game hard enough for the ego maniac min maxing crowd, and easy enough to jump in and not give a damn for the casuals.
So who got left behind? We did. The ones who found another place in life to live wild adventures, that World of Warcraft had to offer. We didnt jump in wanting our hands held, and we certainly didnt jump in wanting to grind numbers.
I did 10% less dps than a fully meta player. But I didnt sell my soul, and ended up having a better experience. The raid did 20% less dps than a top guild, but ended up having a better experience. And between 80 or so people, 40 of them, us, didnt have one complaint. Because we beat the game, and chose to have fun instead.
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I mean I have plenty of fun. We did a drunk BWL clear on alts and took our time, we do casual BGs, level alts together etc.
Just because we “tried hard” on our mains for an hour doesn’t mean we never take the foot off the pedal and relax.
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Dont worry, I’m talking about two pretty big extremes here. Most people dont fit either of those categories.
That’s not their problem. The coolest thing about Classic is that folks who want to squeeze the most out of every talent point can. Those who would rather experiment or play differently, can. You can choose how to play, and who to play with. The point is to have fun. So you do you, and let others do the same.
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Are there not min max and casual raiding guilds in classic?
Live and let live
A balance is needed between trying to do well, and trying to have fun.
If your not having fun from min max, then don’t do it. Join a more causal guild or stop playing. Find something to do you enjoy.
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Min-maxing is not a bad thing in and of itself.
It’s fine with respect to looking at dungeon blues for pre-BIS pieces or how you play specifically with macros and such things.
But it becomes a negative when it’s taken so far that the idea becomes to just make the game a repetitive chore where you’re trying to just minimize the time to do every little task (especially as it relates to PVP).
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I agree, I only get better gear to kill Horde faster! Now that we lose Every AV and every WSG is a premade I stopped queing.
I’m leveling a Shadow Priest now
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Some people do love their jobs. This is a flawed statement because it presumes what makes something fun for an individual player.
ME? No, I burned out when raiding felt like a job, but that was Wrath progression raiding as a main tank, so I felt like I had to request time off.
But that’s only me. Some people don’t have fun in a game unless they’re pushing their limits.
Again, personal opinion. Some people only find a game fun if there is a way to min/max within it.
Deliberate Inefficiency =/= Fun.
I’m an altoholic. When I’m doing a zone on another alt, my efficiency is much greater. I know what quests to pick up together, I know which quests might be worth skipping. I’m never going to be {whoever} that has a leveling guide to hit max level ASAP, but I find it more fun to improve my own speed each time.
They could be playing alts. They could be doing all their non-raid things during the week before the buff collecting.
And if, to them, the game IS the raid, then yes, they are playing the game and focusing on the one thing they enjoy.
Now I can’t speak for them, but you don’t have to be in-game to be on Discord being social with others. Speedrunning takes coordination, takes communicating, and that happens best when the people doing it have ongoing interactions outside of that specific session.
Technically, I don’t, not at the level of having every possible buff available. But that’s because I know it’s not my thing, so I don’t chase it just because others do.
Those people who cleared BWL on day 1, that’s on them. They don’t affect the game I play. I was out happily pushing my rogue to 35 to learn Artisan Cooking.
Who flipping CARES if someone else chose to min/max? What effect does it have on the game, unless you choose to play ‘at that level’?
At the end of the day, your suggestions would do nothing but frustrate a lot of player who ARE having fun.
One of the things I’m enjoying right now is the fact that everything I do is ‘permanent’. My talent choices aren’t going to go out the window with a patch.
ROFL. This is the absolute opposite of everything else you’re saying, because what exactly is this “time to prepare” but encouragement of min/maxing? Or, worse, you think raid logging isn’t playing the game, but you want Blizzard to announce how many months until the next phase so some people can cancel their game time until it’s about to arrive?
Nothing wrong with min/max, love the people who volunteer to arm consumes and burn em every week because they care about how THEY parse.
The only problems occur when those expectations are set on everyone else and they use this to look down on others. They are toxic people who use min/maxing as a method to be jerks to others. Looking down on people for enjoying something different, calling them bad people, just because they picked a different class at the screen select, and enjoy playing a different way is not cool.
Don’t want them in your guild? Bring it up with your officers. Otherwise find another guild which shares your views.
Either way, if you have a problem? Fix it yourself instead of telling other people they can’t enjoy how they want to play. It’s funny how most of the people who have quit the game(note, not the guild) have been the min/max people who take all the top gear with them while everyone who is more chill is still raiding with us.
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Min max was always there. I think the raiding is much more casual then it is. When you had 3 nights to clear mc, you need to be pretty hard core to raid.
This 4 hr mc runs a week(if your bad) is nothing compared to wiping for days straight on luci. The top guilds always required min max. Just more open now. This info was posted on guild websites not youtube.
Min Maxing is fine. An extreme faction imbalance is to blame for most of the complaints.
That imbalance is Blizzards fault.
Pvp always suck in vanilla still sucks in retail and classic its still bad. Wow is a pve game.