Megathread: Merge Skeram and Heartseeker

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Drinknblink-whitemane

Av and WSG came out in phasd 2, and horde ques were NOT 1 hour on bg launch.

1. When I say phase 2, I mean “before battlegrounds were launched”. And by phase 3, I mean “after battlegrounds were launched”. And this should have been obvious based on the context of this discussion.

2. If I recall, horde began with about 5-10 minute queues, and these queues began to increase almost immediately. By the second week they had doubled. And at one point I heard AV had reached two hours.

3. These are your logs from Heartseeker. You left before horde queue times got really bad. The first week or two of BG’s the world was suddenly peaceful compared to phase 2. Then as horde queues increased, more and more horde started going out into the world looking for more honor. At the peak, there were constantly a dozen horde camping at major hubs.

https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/heartseeker/reapers#zone=1000&partition=1&boss=663

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Yeah and you should Also see Reapers on Herod for 1 raid.

Then i was like naw no more healing, went to my original wow toon.

So when we went to Whitemane Alliance i went mage.

I think i went Alliance right before BWL launched, idk was awhile ago.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

The reason we have different perspectives is because all you really know about Heartseeker is phase 2. Phase 2 was trash for everyone, but it was definitely worse for horde. And yes, there would often be more alliance in Org than horde, especially in the middle of the night. But it wasn’t because there weren’t any horde online, but because the horde PvP’ers preferred to sit in places like Dire Maul, Winterspring, EPL, Burning Steppes, etc, because it was better honor.

I raided Orgrimmar a few times, the horde largely just ignored me, and it was pretty much a waste of time. Only the first week was any good because there weren’t dishonorable kills yet.

Secondly, if you think Heartseeker was bad, Stalagg/Skeram were exponentially worse. And not only were they worse in phase 2, but they stayed that way even after BG’s launched because of their queue times.

Phase 3 launched on February 12th. By that time the number of alliance on Stalagg had pretty much reached zero. Whereas horde were still about 15% of Heartseeker almost through to April.

https://ironforge.pro/server/Heartseeker/

https://ironforge.pro/server/Stalagg/

The alliance on Stalagg were driven off by a ruthless horde that made the game unplayable, not only in phase 2 but also in phase 3. The horde on Heartseeker died slowly from attrition, as the number of people leaving exceeded the number of new players. But that was mainly due to the fact that very few people were willing to either level a new character, or even an alt on the minority faction of such an imbalanced server.

In short, Heartseeker horde mainly left after March. And by then horde had 1-hour BG queues, and were camping all the quest hubs. The horde weren’t drive off by alliance gank squads, because there were none in phase 3. The only gank squads were horde. They were driven off by a lack of groups, a lack of recruits, and an empty auction house. The grass was just much greener pretty much everywhere else.

[Zakiri-stalagg]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

From phase 3 on, it was horde who were camping the flight points and dungeon entrances, not the alliance. Moreover, the horde who transferred to Heartseeker for phase 2 came specifically for PvP.

Wow dude, I knew there was something off about you other than being an HS dodger, but actually thinking this about the minor faction on HS.

You should be thankful they don’t merge St/Sk with HS, you’d just end up dodging again.

@Drinknblink-whitemane

That’s the same thing alliance did on Heartseeker.

So it’s not just a “horde” thing. Both factions made the servers they were majority on unbearable.

So people fled. Which is why Stalagg and Heartseeker and Skeram became what they are today.

And exactly why mergers shouldn’t happen- these players got what they earned, give them a bail out and the bigger faction (which if you merge St/Sk with HS will be Horde by far) will just repeat what they did before in HFP at TBC launch, there’s no chance it won’t.

You’d 100% end up dodging after a month of being camped at the dark portal if they merged- frankly, the H-St/Sk and A-HS pop is still high, which proves beyond any question that a year and a half of no pvp did nothing to drive these people away.

It’s a proven fact that these players will stay, merger or not.

Actually, Red you’ve just managed to convince me that MORE players would quit if they merged, since the entire Alliance dodger playerbase on HS would immediately get shredded. Blizz, if you merge you’ll lose an entire server’s worth of subs.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

That’s my point these are problems players created.

Cough up that 25 bucks and pick a server you want to play on done deal

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Zakiri-stalagg

actually thinking this about the minor faction on HS.

Long BG queues forced horde PvP’ers to world PvP between queues. That was just as true on Heartseeker as it was on Stalagg. I’m not complaining about it, I was explaining that when the majority of the horde left, they weren’t being camped. They were the ones camping.

@Zakiri-stalagg

the H-St/Sk and A-HS pop is still high, It’s a proven fact that these players will stay, merger or not.

I’ve been keeping a spreadsheet for a while with population data.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zQjTI0srGLVV5Wjz6vnADxz1tVwnbq8OeJQwFP2oxGE/edit#gid=604067371

According to Ironforge.pro, Stalagg horde have the 21st-largest horde population out of 40 servers. Skeram has the 9th-largest among horde. And Heartseeker is 11th-largest among alliance.

For comparison, about a year ago, Heartseeker was the largest alliance server, and Skeram/Stalagg were 4th and 5th respectively.

Since February 4th of 2020, these are the server population declines(a negative number means growth)…

Arcanite Reaper 95.8%, Incendius 84.5%, Stalagg 82%, Felstriker 67.1%, Skeram 66.5%, Heartseeker 57.3%, Kurinnaxx 54.4%, Kirtonos 53.8%, Anathema 49.1%, Blaumeux 45.1%, Rattlegore 44.4%, Kromcrush 44.1%, Herod 43.8%, Smolderweb 35.9%, Fairbanks 34.3%, Whitemane 28.8%, Arugal 27.3%, Faerlina 24.9%, Bigglesworth 23.7%, Deviate Delight 21.1%, Sulfuras 17.6%, Grobbulus 17.3%, Loatheb 13.8%, Myzrael 13.1%, Thunderfury 9.3%, Yojamba 7.2%, Old Blanchy 4.5%, Remulos 3.3%, Ashkandi 3.3%, Pagle 3.2%, Bloodsail Buccaneers -3%, Earthfury -8.7%, Westfall -9.8%, Benediction -12%, Mankrik -30.2%, Atiesh -32.6%, Azuresong -79.8%, Windseeker -93.1%, Netherwind -105.9%.

Since February 4th, 2020. Stalagg’s population has declined 82%, Skeram 66.5%, Heartseeker 57.3%.

Half of the servers with growth were the ones that received transfers from Incendius. The rest are PvE servers. Any server with a decline greater than 40% is unlikely to bounce back in TBC. Eventually the bottom third will become Arcanite Reaper.

@Zakiri-stalagg

Red you’ve just managed to convince me that MORE players would quit if they merged

Guess I’m talking to a crazy person. But anyway, I’m actually opposed to mergers. I only came to address false claims, and to provide context.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Drinknblink-whitemane

That’s my point these are problems players created.

Cough up that 25 bucks and pick a server you want to play on done deal

If these really are “player-caused problems”, why is “paying” the solution? Do paid transfers not cause problems? And who do they cause problems for? The people who paid? Or the people who were innocently playing the game and did nothing wrong?

[Bricklethumb-earthen-ring]

Let’s try this.

You picked a crowded server?
You picked an empty server?
Transfer to a different server you researched beforehand.

Bob’s your uncle and there is no problem.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

Wow, you’re really smart. You must know a lot about these servers which is why you felt compelled to come into this thread to share your wisdom. Thanks.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Paid servers make it a gate, if it was all free then servers would always change without a moments notice.

Paying for it gates that, it basically limits the amount of people leaving their servers and flooding any server, it also keeps people on their servers.

If your server is decent in population and ratio you wouldnt just xfer, unless you wanted to play with specific people typically. Putting a price on xfering makes it so people dont just up and leave for no reason.

When i decided to go Alliance i researched Whitemane.

I looked at logs to see when guilds raided and what guilds i can make raids on.

I looked at the amount of guilds clearing MC on both factions for population data.

I didnt just pick a trash server and settle.

Paying made me care about where i was going.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Drinknblink-whitemane

Paying made me care about where i was going.

If they offered free transfers off Stalagg right now, would players not care where they went? Do you think they’re just going to choose a server at random, end up on Arcanite Reaper, and then demand Blizzard let them transfer again?

The only thing paying for transfers does, is as you said it does, it keeps people from leaving their servers. If Blizzard hypothetically offered a one-time free transfer for any server to any server. Everyone would leave all of the small servers and go to the top 10 servers.

But the real question is, does having to pay for transfers make servers more balanced? Well, let’s pretend that for one month Blizzard offered completely free transfers, anywhere. Your position seems to be that after the month was over, every server would basically end up 100-0.

But the reality is, if Blizzard actually did this, every server would pretty much end up 50-50(though half the servers would be empty). People didn’t transfer to Heartseeker because they wanted to be on a 80-20 server, they transferred to Heartseeker because they were already on a 80-20 server.

When people are actually given the server of their choice, they go to large and balanced servers, whether the transfers are free or not.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Apparently not, as this thread was made instead not you paying to leave.

[Zakiri-stalagg]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

According to Ironforge.pro, Stalagg horde have the 21st-largest horde population out of 40 servers. Skeram has the 9th-largest among horde. And Heartseeker is 11th-largest among alliance.

For comparison, about a year ago, Heartseeker was the largest alliance server, and Skeram/Stalagg were 4th and 5th respectively.

Exactly- everyone who wanted actual pvp left a long time ago- that there’s still 20-30 realms with worse populations proves that if Blizz needs to do any mergers it’s with those 20-30 realms first.

Having no opposite faction has still kept these servers in the top half of all servers- that such massive amounts of players were willing to go a full year and a half with no wpvp shows that these are some of the healthiest servers in the game.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Guess I’m talking to a crazy person. But anyway, I’m actually opposed to mergers. I only came to address false claims, and to provide context.

They’re remained highly populated despite having only one faction- players who have stuck around did so with no wpvp, you suddenly give them wpvp and the same dodgers from launch will dodge again, ending up with more players quitting.

That’s just the reality of it- and we’ve already seen that happen, and we’ve already seen these players stick around despite no wpvp. The players who left to look for wpvp are never coming back.

Best choice is obviously not to merge these servers.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

If they offered free transfers off Stalagg right now, would players not care where they went? Do you think they’re just going to choose a server at random, end up on Arcanite Reaper, and then demand Blizzard let them transfer again?

You guys got free xfers off St/Sk, ruined HS, and now are asking for free xfers again… so yeah, yeah you’ve already proven you’re the caliber of player that ruin everything you touch then demand Blizz fix your own mistakes.

[Drinknblink-whitemane]

Once a specific faction starts leaving it ruins the server for that faction.

The dominant faction on the server doesn’t get ruined because world PVP is kind of a joke anyway and as long as guilds can keep recruiting it’s irrelevant.

So servers like Heartseeker for horde have no way of recruiting anybody so they either stay there and deal with it or they transfer.

For reference there’s only one horde guild on heartseeker that is clearing naxx up to saph.

So there is no horde guilds on that server full clearing.

[Zagara-skeram]

Na, i’m good with the server how it is.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Zakiri-stalagg

Everyone who wanted actual pvp left a long time ago- that there’s still 20-30 realms with worse populations proves that if Blizz needs to do any mergers it’s with those 20-30 realms first.

1. These were faction-specific numbers. Skeram is the 9th-largest horde, but 22nd overall. Heartseeker is 11th-largest alliance, but 24th overall. And Stalagg is 21st horde, but 34th overall(out of 39).
2. I agree that Blizzard probably needs to address most of the bottom half of servers. But some of those servers are healthy, even if small. While others are dying or completely dead.
3. The people who transfer are largely those without friends. It’s like IRL if you wanted to move to another state. You can go, but your friends and family probably aren’t going with you. If you don’t mind being alone, or making new friends, then sure, the only thing stopping you is money. And if you’re miserable in some small town in Nebraska, you can leave.

@Zakiri-stalagg

players who have stuck around did so with no wpvp, you suddenly give them wpvp and the same dodgers from launch will dodge again, ending up with more players quitting.

1. If Blizzard offered free transfers off Stalagg/Skeram/Heartseeker right now, in order for your logic to make sense, no one would leave(since they want to be here). But is that what would happen? What if I said everyone would leave?
2. You acknowledge that they’ll leave, and that they’ll seek out a more balanced server. But you say that they’ll be miserable when they get there and “dodge” again, because they don’t actually want WPvP. But what do you mean by dodge? Are you saying they’ll pay to transfer back to Heartseeker?
3. The reality is, had Skeram/Stalagg been 50/50 from the beginning, no one would have left. This idea that everything was fine on those servers except that for whatever reason all the alliance dodgers in all of classic rolled only on those two servers, is delusional, if not deranged.

@Zakiri-stalagg

You guys got free xfers off St/Sk, ruined HS, and now are asking for free xfers again

1. Blizzard opened free transfers from Skeram to Heartseeker on September 19th, 2019. On that day, Heartseeker was about 50/50, and Skeram was about 70/30. The original people who transferred to Heartseeker, transferred to a 50/50 server.
2. I’m not necessarily advocating for free transfers, nor am I advocating for a server merger. I came only to correct the many false claims, and to explain what happened on these servers, why it happened, and what is happening now.
3. There is a lot of obnoxious ignorance being spewed by hateful people. Who for whatever reason hate the people on these servers and want to see them suffer. That is their real motivation. That is why they oppose a merger, not because they think it would be a bad thing for the game, or that Blizzard isn’t partially responsible for what happened. Rather, their hatred overwhelms them, and they will do everything they can to make sure the people they hate are as miserable as possible. They relish in it. Drinking their tears like fine wine. The more miserable other people are, the better they feel. It’s kind of pathetic.

[Zakiri-stalagg]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

These were faction-specific numbers

The other faction doesn’t matter, it doesn’t effect your AH, your dungeon groups, your raid groups- and due to Blizz’s decision to make BGs xrealm, it doesn’t even effect BG queues.

The sole thing it effects is wpvp, which, as has been said many times- every player on these servers has been fine with not having for a year and a half, and was directly responsible for driving off the server with their own actions.

So a top 20 faction realm is still perfectly fine for these servers.

And ultimately, it still means if anything should be done it should be for the 20+ servers that are worse off

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

If Blizzard offered free transfers off Stalagg/Skeram/Heartseeker right now, in order for your logic to make sense, no one would leave(since they want to be here). But is that what would happen? What if I said everyone would leave?

If free xfers were offered on any server people would take them- so should all servers have free xfers? No, it’d be bad for communities, horrible for communites that each server built.

AND ST/SK/HS ABSOLUTELY BUILT THEIR COMMUNITIES.

You might not like the result at the end, but there’s no questioning that these servers built their own communities through their own actions, I played on Stalagg long enough to know that, and even now if I run across ? level Horde they’ll hunt and camp me.

Which is their choice- but free xfers/mergers is a slap in the face to those who have worked so hard to run the other faction off their server.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

The reality is, had Skeram/Stalagg been 50/50 from the beginning, no one would have left.

Maybe, but Incendius was about 50/50 and the entire Horde left because they started losing in pvp.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

There is a lot of obnoxious ignorance being spewed by hateful people. Who for whatever reason hate the people on these servers and want to see them suffer. That is their real motivation.

There was a lot of obnoxious stuff spewed by hateful players on St/Sk/HS for the first few months of the game, players who wanted to see the other faction suffer- who filled the forums with ‘reroll and quit’, who gloated about the other faction paying to xfer off, and who celebrated at their victory.

The word karma comes to mind, and there’s nothing wrong with wanting retribution- but in this case, it’s not like the players who were initially wronged are doing anything wrong. This is solely a case of players who created their own problem now facing the consequences of it.

That’s a good thing, consequences are how we learn- and if players learn from this that’s a good thing.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

That is why they oppose a merger, not because they think it would be a bad thing for the game

I’ve explained many reasons why free mergers are a bad thing for the game- it hurts players who WANT one faction servers, the players on these servers have proven they’ll play with no wpvp for a year and a half so clearly no wpvp is not something that’ll make them quit, the factions are still top 20 so pretty healthy, if mergers happen it’ll just cause one faction to get forced off the new server thus ruining the game for thousands of players, etc…

I’ve not heard any reasonable benefit of merging servers that makes sense.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Rather, their hatred overwhelms them, and they will do everything they can to make sure the people they hate are as miserable as possible. They relish in it. Drinking their tears like fine wine. The more miserable other people are, the better they feel. It’s kind of pathetic.

You’ve basically described the entire horde playerbase of Stalagg/Skeram, they took a lot of enjoyment of preventing thousands of players from being able to play a game they’ve been waiting fifteen years to re-experience. Just think about how awful that is- and those that remained had to pay to xfer away.

Why would anyone who has faced that have sympathy for the self-inflicted issue H-St/Sk and A-HS now face, issues that they were warned of well in advance and had every opportunity in the world to change course on.

At some point, you have to pay the piper. So pay up, or stick with the servers your communities created- but free mergers should never be on the table as an option.

[Zagara-skeram]

I couldn’t agree more.

[Redshadowz-heartseeker]

@Zakiri-stalagg

every player on these servers has been fine with not having for a year and a half

There is a difference between “everyone was fine with it”, and “it didn’t bother them enough that they would be willing to leave their guild and give up all their friends to transfer off”.

@Zakiri-stalagg

if anything should be done it should be for the 20+ servers that are worse off

Sounds good to me. I think Blizzard should fix their game. Why don’t you?

@Zakiri-stalagg

No, it’d be bad for communities, horrible for communites that each server built. AND ST/SK/HS ABSOLUTELY BUILT THEIR COMMUNITIES. Incendius was about 50/50 and the entire Horde left because they started losing in pvp.

1. This idea that every player on every server is responsible for everything that happens on their server, is insane. You can do everything right and your server can die because of stupid decisions by Blizzard and/or other players.
2. Before paid transfers, Incendius was about 40/60. Right before free transfers opened it was close to 60/40. But the real problem on Incendius was that the alliance guilds who transferred were all tryhard guilds. Someone said that of the top 30 guilds on the server, 27 of them were alliance.

@Zakiri-stalagg

This is solely a case of players who created their own problem now facing the consequences of it. That’s a good thing, consequences are how we learn- and if players learn from this that’s a good thing.

The only wrong decision I made was rolling on Skeram, and I didn’t even make that decision, my guild did. Everything else I did was 100% the correct decision, and I regret nothing. I made the best decision based on the choices available to me.

Reminds me of that joke my sister told me when I was a kid. “If you were buried up to your neck in crap, and someone spit in your face, would you duck?”

I didn’t bury myself in crap, Blizzard did. Nor did I spit in my own face, other players did. Whether I did nothing or ducked, I am not truly responsible, except insofar as I made the choice between two bad outcomes, preferring the better of the two.

@Zakiri-stalagg

I’ve explained many reasons why free mergers are a bad thing for the game- it hurts players who WANT one faction servers

If every single person on Skeram/Heartseeker was in favor of it, would you support it?

[Zakiri-stalagg]

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

Sounds good to me. I think Blizzard should fix their game. Why don’t you?

They did- it’s called retail WoW, that’s the result of Blizz ‘fixing’ the game to cater to everyone who complained, to fix the dead servers. Now you have cross realm BGs, raids, dungeons, even zones.

Some of us want the community based game that wasn’t ‘fixed’ by Blizz, one thing we talked about for years about why we wanted Vanilla back was just that, community. We got it- warts and all.

Part of community is- if you ninja an item, you don’t get into groups. If you afk in BGs, you don’t get into premades. And if your server community forces the other faction to quit, you don’t get more wpvp.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

There is a difference between “everyone was fine with it”, and “it didn’t bother them enough that they would be willing to leave their guild and give up all their friends to transfer off”.

It didn’t bother them enough to stop playing on that server- that’s just how it is. For some they prefer the servers as they are. I don’t know who likes what on these servers, and neither does Blizz, and they can’t create a server that caters to what every single player on Skeram/Stalagg wants.

But the community as a whole can create the type of server the majority wants- and they did, and that is a server without the other faction. You might not like it- but the community has spoken, and I respect that more. Their actions speak louder than your words.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

This idea that every player on every server is responsible for everything that happens on their server, is insane.

Hence why I said communities- I mean that, communities. No community is a monolith, but this was something that a very sizable portion of the community created, thousands of players contributed to the hunting down and removal of the other faction.

An mmo is a community based game, the community will decide their servers’ direction, not the one or two people who disagree.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

You can do everything right and your server can die because of stupid decisions by Blizzard and/or other players.

Yeah, we know- and Alliance on St/Sk paid real money, or quit the game because of it. It might suck, it might not be fair- but that’s how it is- and that’s how it is now for you too. If it’s worth the money to xfer, you will- if wpvp isn’t that important, you won’t.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

But the real problem on Incendius was that the alliance guilds who transferred were all tryhard guilds. Someone said that of the top 30 guilds on the server, 27 of them were alliance.

Good for them, they fought overwhelming odds and won.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

The only wrong decision I made was rolling on Skeram, and I didn’t even make that decision, my guild did.

That’s the community- again, there’s a massive number of players who picked the wrong faction or server to be on and quit or paid to xfer off- what makes you better than them?

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

I didn’t bury myself in crap, Blizzard did. Nor did I spit in my own face, other players did.

Your server made decisions, you get to live with them- that’s part of playing an MMO, this isn’t a single player game. And you still have a playable game, a sizable population for your faction, every opportunity for raiding, premades, arena teams, auctions. You have it extremely well.

@Redshadowz-heartseeker

If every single person on Skeram/Heartseeker was in favor of it, would you support it?

They aren’t, Onslaught despite having utter domination doxx’d and threatened to kill IRL one of the few Alliance left after they lost world buffs one week to an ambush. The way these people have behaved is not in a manner that shows regret or a desire to change.

Meaning if they get their mergers- what’s the first thing they’ll do? Blockade the dark portal for as long as it takes to force Alliance to quit out of frustration with not being able to access TBC content.

Why would I wish that upon any other server unfortunate enough to get merged with these players?

Even if somehow it could be proved that they all want mergers, there’s still several other reasons I listed to not let it happen.

But you’re talking about a hypothetical that, just from my own interactions with these players, I know is absolutely incorrect.

I can tell you another thing- for those who were left on St/Sk when the balance was around 80/20 H/A in Decemember, the Alliance would all have preferred free xfers off over having to fork over money and leave behind alts- so I’ll extend this;

I would be more than happy to have every member of the Horde who at that time was demanding Blizz give us free xfers off so we could go somewhere we could play the game at all get free xfers right now. All zero of them.